Remove RF would require boost quite a lot the difficulty, there’s tools to manage it, but clearly it’s an element of difficulty, remove it, crabs become more or less trivial and the game would need a huge change.
For me RF has certainly some negative aspects, but it adds a layer of depth, and there’s many tools to manage it. Remove it would streamline the game and made it quite easier.
For old RF and new RF, it was easy to ignore old RF, not new RF. I read old RF was allowing serious exploit from player, but not necessarily op holes, I don’t know.
No, OW is triggered by enemy movement, so it’s an opportunity/penalty (depending on pov) for movement into an area.
RF, is an opportunity/penalty for shooting. IMO it makes more sense that someone protecting the target returns fire, not the target itself.
I hope you will agree that this is semantics… And that “Fire at me when I fire” is a terrible name for a skill
They are, what I mean is that the time that elapses between them is almost negligible. Again, this would make more sense if it wasn’t the target returning the fire but a teammate.
Yes, or even better Pantolomin’s suggestion below:
Though this would require new animations.
My point is taking shots from cover when RF is involved should carry substantial risk. It makes sense though that it be less than shooting outside of all cover.
You define area to cover with OW as long there’s LoS. Base cost is 2 AP, needs manual setup and ends your turn. Triggers once. Target is moving so accuracy is so-so.
Covers 360 around you, as long as there’s LoS. Costs nothing, it’s passive, always on. Triggers multiple times. Target is stationary so damage is guaranteed if penetrates.
There is absolutely nothing tactical with it. it’s just “Magic Armor of Damage Reflection” (even better, as you don’t need to receive any damage to trigger) Free damage opportunity, no risk, just reward.
Really? I mean, you have to get shot at to activate it, with the chance that you might killed or crippled and not be able to return it.
I haven’t opened a spell book in a while, but I’m pretty sure it doesn’t work this way. The damage doesn’t get it reflected - you get shot for 100 damage and you might return 200, 10 or 0 damage with your weapon. Or be dead.
Sorry @VOLAND , I speak from Pandoran perspective, because I hate mankind. What I’m trying to say it’s not free damage for PP, it is nightmare! Right after early game crabs turn into armored bullet sponges. You have to shot them, a lot. 320 HP and 40 Armor? With Return Fire? Oh come on. That’s some kind of bullshit.
This is not a tactical option and obstacle that comes out, and you have to deal with it this turn. This isn’t a “Oh, this guy is on overwatch so better not move out of cover” scenario. This is something you can’t mitigate and you just have to take into account you’ll damage yourself shoting a crab in a game that’s basically about shoting crabs. Because, how? “All these guys have Return Fire so maybe I won’t shot at all”? This thing is never on cooldown, it requires no Willpower to sustain, it requires no AP to setup, it triggers every time.
You’re saing this isn’t Damage Reflection? Of course it is not. Like you’ve said: you can shot a crabman for 50 or 0 damage and take 200, 100 or 0 damage in return. Or get killed. Just because. Can you outmanouver it tacticaly? Nope, because crab doesn’t care if you flank him and shot his back. He’ll turn around and shot you anyway. That’s cheap and tedious.
I wish I could deal with tactical superiority of my enemies, flanking me from both sides while few stays on overwatch keeping me pinned down. And I have to deal with a guy that stands in the open, and shots me back every time I shot him. Where’s tactic in this? Do I need to skillfest everyone down?
Edit: You’ve said in mentioned topic:
You shot a guy in a foot, because that’s all that sticks out of cover, and you get shot back without a chance of getting back into cover? Clairvoyance? I can jump around like a monkey out of cover and it won’t trigger anything, so the “you expose yourself” part just doesn’t make any sense. Want to react to me exposing myself? Set an overwatch. Or make an overwatch trigger also on fire, not move only. Not sure why it mimicks XCOM skill. Not reacting to a guy leaning out of cover, because his intention is to shot and not move make no sense as well. “Oh, this guy just moved out of cover. Hmm. He doesn’t run but points a gun at me. Better wait till he shot me so I can shot back. I could shot him now, but I’m on overwatch, not a f… killing spree.”. Yup. 100% valid thinking pf a soldier that’s supposed to react with fire to any movement .
Oh come on… I can’t remember the last time I got RFed by a crab, TBH. There are so many different ways of dealing with it.
True, you can’t use military tactics like pin them and flank them and all that, but PP does not pretend to be a mil simulation. I mean, you are fighting crabs with machine guns and hovercraftian horrors, not Nazis in the Ardennes…
Same goes for this:
But as I said in earlier posts I think it would be a good idea if cover did offer some protection from RF.
I understand that many players would want PP to be a different game, more mil sim, less skills. I like mil sims too, and if PP would have gone down that road perhaps I would have liked it. But ultimately PP is a board game with ballistics and a skills sandbox, and I like it very much for what it is.
The one thing it is missing IMO is a proper Panda evolution, but that’s a different topic altogether…
You can shoot at a crab and not get any RF. You can even shoot at crab and benefit of some cover, which doesn’t mean no damages. You can disable crab RF.
Some posts ignores those possibilities, this is problem, there’s a base for RF, argue out of this base makes no sense.
It doesn’t make sense, considering there is Overwatch that’s supposed to do the very same thing: react to an action. But it works only as reaction to movement, because this is how it worked in XCOM.
None of the genre previous games was a military simulator. Original UFO: Enemy Unknown and successors (Xenonuts, Extraterrestials and few others)? Just leave some TUs and you’ll have a chance for reaction shot. Firaxis XCOM games? You could perk an OW to react to fire as well. And they were very boardgameish, XCOM even more (with how positioning and cover system worked). Yet still, tactical solution was always an option and most of the time the only option. Here, it is hardly ever an option.
How can you even use this arguement in a game where you can shot someones arm off so he can’t use a weapon? Or setup the very narrow cone for Overwatch so you target specific place. This game is much closer to military sim than any other in that regard.
The problem is, game is a mix of everything poorly stitched together. Some things are calculated realtime (like OW reaction shot hitting the cover enemy is just passing by), some are shitty turn by turn (like hitting crabman in a back and waiting for him to hide shield, turn around, shot, turn back, deploy shield). Game is so inconsistent with its own mechanics.
PP is obviously a military sim. I’ve never played a game that was more obviously a military sim than this one.
Which is why in theory I’d much prefer it over XCOM because there, tactical movement is consistently punished. Trying to flank enemies and use the terrain simply leads to activation of more pods. Instead, the best way to play is to move forward in tiny increments until one pod is activated, then not moving even one more step forward until that pod is eliminated. For all its other great qualities, I always hated this part of the game. PP does this so much better - but still has too many flaws in these mechanics.
I agree. I thought you wanted mil sim tactics to deal with RF because you said this:
I mean, it seems to me that what you are saying is that there is no “tactics” to deal with RF, when there are plenty of them, just that they are not mil sim tactics.
Totally agree with you - The whole thing is bizarre.
That and the fact that, since the game got patched, all your mates will now watch that guy shooting you and not react in anyway, whilst the numpty who just sat there any watched an enemy run up to him and shoot half his leg off will now suddenly decide to retaliate and do so with unaffected accuracy.
It’s as if all the bullets are made out of adrenaline.
Body part targeting has nothing to do with military sim, or setting OW to cover a specific area.
No offense, but that only means you haven’t played anything approaching a milsim.
There is really nothing about PP that is remotely milsim, which is precisely what many players are complaining about. The weapons are not remotely realistic, nor is the movement, nor are the skills, nor are the tactics. It has ballistics, but even the ballistics in PP have nothing remotely realistic about them.
Look, I’m not saying that RF shouldn’t be improved, or as has been suggested merged with OW, as an enhanced version, just that it has a purpose and it fits with the other game mechanics.
Yeah, give an Anvil armor to your assault, +20 by technician, and jetpack in the middle of the enemies.
Unfortunately, I think the AI won’t even try to shoot.
Errr. What I complain about is that you can ie. flank a guy that’s on OW, but you can’t flank a guy that has Return Fire. Skill doesn’t care where you are and what you do as long as you’re in range. Behind him, above, underneath, in his backpack, riding him like a horse. Doesn’t matter. Shots fired? Retaliate!
I don’t care about realism, but that just don’t make any sense and doesn’t fit the game at all.
Take Machinegun + Shield Crabman for example. His shield deploy is positional, it has to face one of four directions and protects from shots from that direction. There are ways to overcome this. You can destroy the shield, you can disable hand that wields the shield. You can flank him and get behind. You can ignore the shield and shot the leg. Yet his facing direction is fixed. He doesn’t turn around when I move, he doesn’t do anything to protect himself. Why the hell, if this skill is positional and have to face one specified direction, does this crabby turn around to Return Fire at me? Is he still reacting to “you expose yourself”?
I have been experimenting with casting double electric shield by the technician, and it’s true, the enemies won’t even shoot at you. However, apparently they will spit - because the poison goes through the armor.
