Cover destruction

Hello Guys, one question to all players - if you could chose, what would you prefer?
Cover in Phoenix Point is not destroyable by bullets, only explosives, OR bullets capable destroying any cover (thick walls included)

I’m asking this just to get some info if such mod would be interesting to have or not :slight_smile:

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bullets capable destroying any cover (thick walls included)

Its hard to distinguish real cover, so better option is “all cover easier destructible”, including enemy ones

Some kind of indication is currently under review

I would prefer that bullets did not destroy walls, but could penetrate them depending on the weapon. Cannons like the heavy’s could be able to, and also acid weapons could do damage and dissolve it if it was enough to “kill” the cover. Other damage types like poison would do no damage at all.

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Problem is, cover destruction graphics cannot be edited, which means you either destroy cover spectacularly (with parts flying around) or do no damage to it at all…

It is possible to do this based on weapon type, and in my current test version i have all projectile weapons unable to break/destroy cover with single shot (projectiles are set to 10x to 3x less cover damage than before), while at the other end, i have increased cover damage for grenades,rockets and of course hel2 cannon. (about 2x more than before)

In this working version (i call it realism version), cover protects against bullets, therefore you and AI can rely on it, and you are better to use grenades and rockets if you want to destroy enemy cover effectively (Odin grenades are very good for this, rocket launchers even better) - so practically very similar to how Xcom games handled cover.

But, i can also make a version where every weapon can destroy any cover, which will make cover practically useless as it will stop only first bullet. In this version, you will destroy everything except strongest walls (Citadel walls seems to be strongest), but at the same time, enemy fire will obliterate anything as well… This of course is fun to watch, but from personal experience, it gets old quite quickly :slight_smile:

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Sounds good. :+1:
How is it handled with glass? (Not only Synedrion, but they have obviously the most). Is it handled different, because sometimes you can shoot through and not destroy it completely?
I would prefer the actual behaviour, that also ‘weak’ weapons are able to shoot through glass but not really through walls.

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it is not material based, but weapon based… so if you decrease object damage for certain weapons, they will be less capable penetrating all types of cover as before… glass included…

it would get penetrated eventually, if you shoot a lot of projectiles at it. it will get destroyed, if you throw a grenade at it…

i dont know how glass is defined, how much HP it has… but with reduced object damage, it will be more resistant to such fire than before.

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ooh this is bad… I would not like impenetrable glass :joy:
well I guess we could look at it as bullet-proof glass but I wish the implementation was material-based and not weapon-based.

Glass is very cool because it makes for different tactics, you know the dumb enemies do not account for it well so you take advantage of that, and also you have much less cover on syn maps because most of it is weak and you know you can’t rely on it.

AFAIK it must be both, material AND weapon based. For instance, on Synedrion maps you can easily shot with an Ares AR through glass but not through the walls direct close by. The Hel II can destroy both easily. Explosives are somewhat in between, glass for sure, walls sometimes.

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I did not express myself correctly… you’re right, it must take both the material and weapon/munition at the same time.

By material I meant that each material could’ve an “armor” against each munition type that prevented damage to its overall health. Also, it should’ve (in the material or in the weapon) properties that define for each munition if it may go through that material without breaking it or not, and if so how much of it’s damage is lost.

For instance a thin wall would not be destroyed by bullets, but they would pass through it. Glass would be shattered. A thick wall would not be destroyed nor let bullets pass through, but laser maybe could (sorry if I got my physics wrong).

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That would be cool for sure, but maybe a bit too much?
Damage loss should be already implemented if I’m not wrong. I’m pretty sure that shooting enemies behind glass with a sniper rifle is dealing lesser damage as without something in between.

Not at all, with the basis already implemented as you said, this doesn’t seem hard from a development perspective.

just to be clear, i managed to locate values responsible for weapon damage to cover objects… Of course, cover itself has own armor/hp values, but those with current available data i cannot access… therefore for my mod, i’m limited to just adjust weapons… Yes, these values can be adjusted whatever way i want, with different result… I can increase them to make them more effective against cover, or decrease to make them less effective… it is a simple multiplier to weapon damage, therefore if some weapon deals a lot of damage, decreasing that multiplier means its damage will be reduced when hitting cover, and not destroy the cover instantly. If its increased, cover is obliterated easier.

Best possible solution would be to adjust actual cover values, reduce HP for certain problematic covers which seems to be almost undestructible despite their size (wood box on the NJ map, or mushroom structure in Pandoran colony maps are the most obvious offenders)… I tried increasing these values to manage destroy these, yet value i had to use meant these weapons were then able to destroy even thickest walls… which means those small cover objects have same HP as thick concrete wall… (which i would say is an oversight on game design side)

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I mean the point “go through that material without breaking”. I think this would need a complete new mechanic, AFAIK actually it is so, that if you can go through than it also breaks the cover. There is no difference between piercing and damaging/destroying.

What I would generally like would be a separation from piercing and damage, not only for cover but also against enemies and their armor. So if a weapon cant pierce then it shouldn’t be able to deal damage at all (for instance shotguns against heavy armor = no damage, against low armor = big damage). This could then also be the base to pierce different cover materials.

Edit: With “too much” I meant to mod something and not what could be even better. And modding the game is the intention of @jj482b and his OP.

Oh I see what you mean, that’s right. It really would need a new piercing mechanic. It’s not really difficult to implement for cover, though. However, if it was present in cover, I assume most would want it to work on body parts too and then it would mean a new tactical mechanic. Still does not seem difficult to implement, but then it would’ve more consequences to gameplay.

But then this would need in turn to change the “no damage” into some kind of shred. Why would these shots not damage the armor? It’s like blunt weapons (hammer for instance), they don’t pierce yet they can destroy nonetheless, it depends on the force of the impact. It can also damage what is behind the protection by sheer transfer of kinetic energy.

Well, going back to what @jj482b can mod… you seem to be in a good path with the changes. The only problem is glass, but since you can’t tune it, nothing can be done about it for now.

Of course, something like that, it was just a simple example to point to what I mean with piercing and damage. IMO shotguns aren’t really comparable to blunt weapons (except in some fancy films :wink: ), but shred would be a way to go. BTW, shred is already separated, so why not also seperate piercing values for any weapon instead of already piercing with the damage values and then adding piercing on top of that?

So, we are hijacking the next thread? :rofl:

BTT:

For me glass would maybe not be a real problem. As long as it is easier to destroy / penetrate as walls IMO all is fine and only a case of balancing the values to a right point.

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you would still be able to destroy walls and any cover by using explosive grenades, or rockets, or Hel2 cannon…

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… and that’s how it should be for me. I like what you do, at least the one solution with reduced or even eliminating almost all destroy capabilities for projectile weapons. Maybe a bit more for sniper rifles so that they can destroy low HP cover (like glass :wink: ), but that is not a ‘must have’ IMO.

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i’m actually considering giving Gauss weaponry slightly better stats in cover penetration than other ballistic weapons have… together with high damage sniper rifles have in this game, i think these will still be able to penetrate glass and small cover objects…

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Yes please!

This seems to be a recurring thing… :rofl:

It’s OK in a mod, but not in the main game. People expect glass to break more easily and also shatter in its entirety instead of just the one tile. In a mod, you know what you’re signing up to.

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Armor piercing is somewhat problematic… its not added to every weapon, therefore you cannot add it easily. Of course, there is a mod on Nexus, that adds all base effects to every weapon (piercing, shred, bleeding), which then can be enabled through json mod.

I actually have weapons file modified for that mod, so certain weapons got their Armor Piercing values… (mostly Gauss)

Anyway, because that mod requires modnix, and i guess not everybody will want to use it, i might just make multiple versions with and without these values added, so my mod should be fully customizable and compatible.

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