Would the game balance better without dual classing?

Seem like a lot of the OP perk combinations from the players side of things stem from being able to dual class - Heavy/Sniper for example.

I liked the idea of dual classing when it was first announced, but I wonder whether the game as a whole would be easier to balance if this feature were removed.

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What difficulty are you playing at?

There’s a clear design problem with multi class but remove it and the problem is even worse because then soldiers building is too scarce and linear.

There’s certainly some synergy from multi class, but most problems seems to come from specific skills.

Yeah, but you can then add and adapt existing perks without worry over how they’ll combine with other classes.

I’m not, it was a general question.

Sure classes systems open more freedom for more diversity and more balance, but this game choose a different path. It’s a lot too late to do that for the game.

This is a tactical game, not a RPG, they should be able balance the whole fairly enough.

If currently players tend use only some specific set, it’s more because of other balances broken and some OP skills than because of the multi class system.

I think one thing that we all pretty much accept is that the game has been released in what is essentially a Beta state. Snapshot have also got 12 months or so before a 2nd release on steam, to which whilst I don’t think Snapshot are likely to wholesale drop the possibility for Dual builds within Phoenix Point, I’d also hazard that it’s not too late for any change to be made. (They may prevent certain combinations for example).

They ‘should’ …

I do agree with you that it’s a balancing issue overall, but the perks being combined between classes is currently what tends to be the cause of OP builds. People who post on the forum that they are struggling in the game are often not taking this route, they’re trying to play single builds of which all are ineffective. Whereas people who are dual classing are able to clear maps against overwhelming odds with only 1 turn. That in itself needs to be fixed for sure.

But the OP was asking would it be easier to balance the game if that option to dual class didn’t exist. The problem with dual classing, in any game, is that when you start to introduce the possibility of it you introduce an exponential equation to your number of builds available; for each new class that’s created it isn’t then just one new build that must be balanced, it’s that new class combined with every existing class:

Dual Class
1 Class = 1 build to balance
2 Classes = 3 builds to balance (Both single classes, plus the dual build)
3 Classes = 6 builds to balance (3+3)
4 Classes = 10 builds to balance (4+6)
5 Classes = 15 builds to balance (5+10)
6 Classes = 21 builds to balance (6+15)
7 Classes = 28 builds to balance (7+21)
8 Classes = 36 builds to balance (8+28)

Whereas if you’re only allowing for single class builds, those 8 classes will only require balancing of 8 builds. This then allows for more unique classes to exist within the game, as each addition requires less work.

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Instead of dual classing could go with a similar route that Firaxis XCom took - for each class you have specializations. Just to have a bit of variety. Then you would have some sort of meaning behind the classes and their equipment restrictions.
Regarding equipment, Xenonauts 2 is doing something cool (not in beta yet) - armor upgrades, you have a number of armor suits and then things like jet packs, extra armor, more camouflage is added as addon. So you are not forced to have jetpack only on specific armor.

Multi class is hugely more fun, totally disagree to remove it.

The more I play the less I see that some skills are OP tools. Lets take Rage Burst, it’s still a full clip use, frankly in first parts where it’s the hottest I have most often better thing to do than kill a Scylla or a Siren. For example with a Sniper destroy 2 AR of crabs. Later I already use some ammo and next Rage Burst is quite less powerful.

This let the question on full team RB. I think I have RB with almost all other classes, and didn’t saw anything making combats trivial. The weakness of RB is it’s one target, full clip spend, WP cost. Even WP cost isn’t insignificant, more than once when later in a combat I wanted use a RB, oops nope, need restore Will first so next turn at best. RB involve also other problems, know well target moves during a RP, some RB will hit 50% because of target move during the RB, not because you could miss when you started the RB. More.

So, for me RB is a tool among other, and I have about 20 skills I consider as powerful starting with Dash. It is just one of the best tools. I tried only once a full party RB but it was no way the most efficient party I played. I admit I need try more a full party RB.

This let just Citadels making look RB op because unlike other missions kill first the Scylla is the goal and end the mission. But that’s a problem with Citadels not with RB.

RB also makes capture much more simple once you have the pistol or the rifle, but frankly I don’t want bother with capture without that.

All of that to say that it’s more complex than it could seem, RB won’t help you manage better an army of crabs or Triton, which is the main threat in most missions.

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I’m not asking whether it’s fun or not, as a concept it’s a good idea. It’s the execution of it that’s the problem.

I think there’s more than enough threads about why RB is OP, if you don’t think so, then you’re perhaps the only one.

And that’s the issue in a nutshell - for an assault they might miss 50% of the time, but a sniper still hits 100% even with a reduced accuracy. To which how do you balance that for a sniper to a have a chance to miss, whilst not making the assault’s chance ridiculously low? - Whereas if it’s a perk that is only used by a single class assault then you can balance easily in a number of way.

If dev want balance better RB between weapons they have an easy tool, it’s clip size. Other tools are clips weight and price. I don’t see what’s complex here.

Doing that doesn’t just alter the effectiveness of weapons when using RB, it alters the effectiveness of them full stop. So now you have a balanced sniper rifle when using RB, but you’ve made it UP the rest of the time.

I learned quickly the animations for each one when they get shot. I then planed accordingly so even on a Siren nearly all my shots would hit.
The greatest moment I had with RB was with 3 NJ heavies all aligned.

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For clip size/weight/price, NO WAY, the SR has ton of advantages and I see no explanation for the absurd big clip sizes than RB.

Lol ok but that’s a bit difficult, I manage it more simply. But yeah it involves some limitation. Anyway I never use RB for Sirens or it’s a very desperate case which should be very rare.

Was first play-through on rookie (what ???! is that really rookie ??!??). Used RB only once on my “normal” play-through with the Deceptor (limited to 4 shots with a mod).

Started a Legendary campaign and will see how it pans out. Starting with only 4 soldiers does make a big difference … and I lost my heavy on second scavenging site, so I did the Anu “worms infestation” mission with 2 assaults and 1 sniper. Surprised with my first bash (saving ammo) that I didn’t kill a worm … only 14 strength. The mission was finally challenging (eventhough the Chiron had a tendency to crush exploding barrels on its way to me so lost a good part of its health).

I play with the mod that does give the enemy’s weapons (would be nice if it also gave the armor), so I have some nice weapons already for my recruits (recruiting for only food is great).

One thing though. I did a “sabotage food resources” in a Anu haven (Synedrion influence) and once I got rid of all opposition it would have been nice to consider that I won. Because I had to destroy all the containers. And since I wanted to save some ammo, I had to bash all of them, which takes lots of time.

I wasn’t bragging, I’m sure I used RB a few time against Siren, I only wanted say that overall except in a very special case, it’s a waste.

Surely the less options - the easier it becomes to balance everything.
But the multiclass system in PP is too much fun making all sorts of different crazy builds and adding a lot of options to experiment with. That’s one of the things making PP so special! :smile:

Balancing might be easier - but I think dual classing is one of the most interesting Phoenix Point additions.

+1 on soldiers builds, and quite fascinating even, with death I have/had about 34 soldiers, all was unique. Ok some builds don’t look that good, but if it survives it ain’t bad either. :slight_smile: