Return fire fail

First of all, regardless of other nerfs I agree with, RF should trigger right after your character moves back to cover. RF being immediate action doesn’t make any sense and is serious bullshit. It is one of the reasons I don’t play the game and wait for mod support.

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+1 exactly

Isn’t this exactly the point? As it’s a turn-based tactics game, RF is not an ability every unit have. It’s a specific skill that soldiers have to spend points on, as well as pandorans with the new pandoran evolution system. So, I don’t see it as a general game mechanic that should be tied to realism but rather as a skill that that specific unit has and makes it more dangerous. It doesn’t need to make “sense” as most other skills don’t do, it’s a tactical game mechanic.

This doesn’t mean that we can’t make it better or worse, but I’m fine with it existing either way, and personally I don’t have much problem with the current implementation. I curse every time I forget an enemy has it, and that’s actually nice because it provides a challenge that’s not always there and thus helps to make the game more tactically challenging. If you can always account for all variables, you’ll always be prepared and the game’ll be easy, bland and not fun.


Use snipers and granades, attack enemies individually, not groups of them.

By that logic overwatch should go the way of the dodo as well as that also allows one to act outside of their turn.

Our assaults can also have RF and typically have far higher perception then Pandorans have. If you think its lethal on Pandorans just think about how lethal it is the players hands… Most of the times I get one of my assaults shot, he returns fire and kills the Pandoran who attacked him, and the damage that they suffer generally really isent that high…

Again, its only really a problem if you fire at Pandorans (you know the less armoured and lower hp Arthrons then the melee Arthrons) and let them return fire. And then again. And maybe again.

And if thats the case the problem isent so much RF but something else entirely. A change of tactic could remedy the entire ‘problem’ here. Whats all the fuss about? I just dont see it :confused:

Overwatch requires action point investment and can only fire once. Why you’d compare the two is beyond me.

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In theory you could take your turn and loose your whole team to this ridiculous RF. I mean, excuse my French but it’s just effin darn stupid.
What happened to this game? It was suppose to be something new and exciting for turn based tactics?
Instead it has become idiotic.

If you don’t understand how RF works than you’re maybe right. When you get it how it works it is mostly harmless.
Some hints:

  • RF only triggers at half of the perception of the one that has this ability. Arthrons (the only pandorans with the RF ability) have not much perception, almost 25 (didn’t see one with more), so stay 13 tiles away to shoot and nothing happens. On nightly missions the perception is decreased to 50%, here you can go close up to 7 tiles without to fear RF.
  • RF doesn’t trigger by melee attacks, use your heavy to bash or other squaddies with melee weapons if you like to fight close on.
  • Any type of explosives throwing or launching from out of LOS doesn’t trigger RF (because no LOS). Use any obstacle to get a position where the RF’er cant see you.
  • At least, shot their arm that holds the MG, RF threat eliminated.

For me it is exactly this, but this is only my personal opinion.

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A big yes for this. If a soldier at overwatch, his weapon should be ready to fire and fire as soon as the enemy moves a finger. I lose many overwatch because of this.

And overwatch should be continue as the unit got enough time, like if an assault overwatch with RF with full turn, he should able to fire 2 times, at least one per different enemy, maybe different movement…

At the Voland’s heavy minigun video, a Pandoran return fired from 10 tiles. It’s not so bad perception to me.

I don’t know the rules of the mechanic and to be honest I don’t want to know. I know It’s stupid and that is all I need to know.
Soldier A fire’s in to the back of enemy B. Enemy B turns full circle and shoots Soldier A near dead. Soldier B now shoots into the back of the same enemy B. Enemy B turns full circle again and shoots Soldier B near killing him.
Enemy’s turn: Enemy B slaps soldier A and B to death with a fly swat. What a load of collocks. :slight_smile:

Return fire like overwatch should be a skill requiring reserved action points, like all of their action points. Plus only able to do it once and only if the target is in their cone of vision. All else is BS.

I didn’t say any different:

Compared to humans it is pretty low, your soldiers have 35 perception. The highest are Tritons with double perception ability, going up to 60 perception (but of course no RF).

This opinion is a bit contrary for me to this:

For something new I have to learn the rules to understand what’s going on and to find tactical solutions to not get trapped.

If you understand the rules, then this will never happens again:

Because you simple do something different to prevent the RF. See my post above, many possibilities to deal with it.

But it is your choice …

No matter the arguments because of RF and other daft design decisions and silly mechanics this game will always be B-rated. It will have it’s die-hard fans but it will always be B-rated and at the bottom of the bargain bin.
I’m going to buy popcorn for when it drops on Steam. That’s going to more entertainment than the game. :smiley:
Why oh why did I buy the super duper ultimate version? Probably because I believed Julian would give us something with the wow factor.

Bye Bye! You can always return your A rated X-Com.

As I said I am burned out on Xcom-2. Anyone played Wastelands 3. Is it as good as the reviews are saying.

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Yes, you’re maybe right. As would the original x-com probably B-rated on steam. The audience changed hardly with the time, casual wins all the way. Learn and adapt is very out.

Sorry if I’m to hard, but the game isn’t out on steam yet and the devs working hard to make it better and better. But anyone that complaints about things that are not really an issue let them make 2 steps back.
The original return fire was much harder and I liked it, it was a real challenge. But now we have the easy form … fantastic and it isn’t enough for some.


The problem simply is that it forces you to use either Sniper or fire from outside LOS with explosives while medium range weapons are already garbage compared to every other option. You do not notice it past early game if you just keep using Snipers or can reliably one-shot arms, but it can still pose awkward situations when you dare to play with Assault Rifles for example.

Another problem is that the indicator is still not shown when you shoot from cover. I made a bug report about this after release, repeated it a couple of times and nothing happened.

It also just doesn’t make sense. Time units (or action points) are there to represent the flow of time. RF doesn’t use them and can potentially repeat until out of ammo. That’s really quite ridiculous. I didn’t really like Berserkers in firaxcom for that reason, but at least they could not punch you during your turn.

I play to the endgame with assault rifles and they always do a good job on mid range, I mostly use the Daimos, so lowest damage per bullet. But I have to admit that I almost buff them with dual class to Infiltrator for Sneak Attack, then there is no longer any problem with ARs.
But even when I not combine my Assaults with Infiltrator (seldom, but happens from time to time to test some other buildes) I can do reliable damage out of RF range. Sure, without Sneak Attack I can’t kill one Arthron with one or two bursts, but disabling works fine if I have an angle on his arm, more is not necessary. And, at least, my Assaults are mostly not alone against the enemies, it is a squad, a team, and everyone is there to help each other. Sometimes it is a Grenadier that do his explosive job or a Heavy that jumped in for a bash or a Sniper taking out his arm or weapon but sometimes it is also an Assault that deals with the RF enemies.

This is of course an issue and should be solved.

Endgame really doesn’t matter much. Deimos is a long range weapon, especially with later armour. You barely have to get into RF range and if you do you do enough damage to those assaults/tritons to rip off an arm. RF is mostly a problem during early game, making it even more of an issue as early game usually is more difficult than late game. It’s especially frustrating for new players.

If such cheese would appear later in game - like firaxcom berserkers for example - there would barely be complaints.

In the early game the Arthron gunner are so weak that you can easily oneshot them with the Ares.

Sure, NJ Assaults are stronger and have more Perception, so more RF range, and you cannot disable one arm with one Ares burst. But then there are enough ways to deal with them as only to shoot at them. Take a step back and throw a grenade, the next one can then disable the arm. This way I almost deal with NJ Assaults in the early game when I have no Sniper or Heavy in range.
Or use overwatch from full cover, they almost move first in their turn to get an better angle. If you have more than only one Assault in position then he is in pretty trouble. If you have only one Assault near an NJ Assault then you are in trouble anyway, regardless of RF.