from my perspective, its not the weapon alone that makes it the tool of choice, the class that comes with it has most of the accuracy boosting skills, and several skills that allow for boosting damage output by removing armor, reducing AP costs or adding a damage multiplier.
on top of that, the capstone skills of other classes interact with it in an equally powerful way…(adrenaline rush and rage burst, both dmg/AP boosters). this combined with the fact that it is the most accurate weapon by a mile and second hardest hitting weapon class per shot (as such least affected by armor as a whole) buries the fact that the damage per AP spend is actually not that high (less then a pistol really)
this means that you can’t really nerf rifles too much, as they will very quickly swing from the most used weapon to the trash bin.
the problem with the current quick aim is that it doubles as an accuracy booster and an damage per AP booster. this makes the skill extremely powerful for all weapons, as inaccuracte weapons can use it to ensure hits, and high cost weapons can ensure an extra attack per turn. if you make it a penalty to accuracy you will move players that want to get a lot of damage out closer to the target, and spend more WP to do so. I do note that a penalty to accuracy does not make the skill weaker like it would in a percentage based system. it would mainly reduce its utility function, but the ability for the current quick aim to ensure long range shots with inaccurate weapons or on extremely small targets with rifles is not something to ignore.
note that with my changes, you don’t spend more AP compared to the current version…you get more accuracy then the current SR for the same cost at a slight damage penalty, or more Damage/AP at an accuracy only marginally better then my proposed changes to AR’s (that will then be notably better against moderately armored targets). the main benefit of giving the skill to the weapon instead of to a skill like QA is that it cannot be used to increase the likelihood to hit with a cannon or MG. (and in my opinion, it makes more sense as the weapon has a scope, and I’m just going to assume this scope has the option to increase its magnification…using less when “snapping” and more while dialing in the shot at range. this means I’d like the extreme accuracy + slow shot to be a part of the weapon identity, while still allowing it to transition towards a more “combat rifle” like use with quick aimed snapshots. With this in mind, I thought the logical option would be that the weapon pays for extreme accuracy in the equivalent of time units, and in this game that seems to be AP)
It’s not the best, it’s the most versatile. All the other weapons have some drawbacks that preclude their use in some situation. SR has none. So, yes, many other weapon types are better at some situations, but there is no other weapon type that is so reliable in any situation.
Like someone said a few replies down using a long rifle indoors is difficult… Youd be alot more limited in your movement and how you could clear rooms.
You need a shorter weapon for that.
But the game doesnt take place indoors.
90% of my missions are outside in the open… The game stops letting you do hives after a while. (which i thought were the most fun mission)
We are talking about crabs just walking up to your snipers while im assuming they are standing outside correct? Thats usually where they would be standing.
Though, like someone else said its better to just have a fully automatic up close for obvious reasons.
But im just saying i wouldnt have any sort of issue hitting a target up close with a .308 rifle or something.
Im sure theres something else the devs can do other then mess with the accuracy.
Missing shots because rng can be really frustrating lol.
JA2 1.13 has a nice balance element for this where you are just taxed hard with accuracy when using scopes for targeting anything that is too close. The size of the rifle itself is taxed outside of this, the main culprit is scope! Perhaps it’s not the most realistic - I mean you can put some Minox scope on a G3A3, it’s a full battle rifle, can fire in full auto or semi, uses full caliber 7.62×51mm rounds, 20 rounds mag - can work up close not all that worse than a machine pistol as long as you can aim and control it’s recoil, regardless if scope is there. And this totally works in the game, as long as you use ironsight to aim. So you still have to have one to work up-close, meaning in RL you might not needed it but in game it’s the must. A pistol or SMG would still be better as each step of getting maximum accuracy out of the shot takes less time units. This way you can have specialized weapons + some defense weapons, or more general purpose and just carry some stuff for “re-configuring” them, like replace your x8 optics with a holo-sight before entering building.
Before someone starts complaining I’m not suggesting this ^ in PP. That’s too much work and it’s applicable to pretty much only JA2 as it’s based on huge variety of different weapon systems. You do need plenty of interesting systems to support this
When that post was made three days ago I was considering the situation as it applied to stationary targets in the real world, because that’s how the ones in game are presented. As far as that goes it was an accurate post. The issue of movement was brought up shortly after and addressed. I don’t feel any of the in-game enemies are fast enough for that to be an issue and for situations where movement speed is fast enough to affect aim I think it’s already modeled well enough.
As to the rest of your post I agree. I especially like:
I had the same idea a couple nights ago and think it’d make a great alt mode or mod.
@conductiv regarding QA, I think you are right in most of what you are saying, I just don’t think that it’s a bad thing. The versatility it gives is expensive and not self sustaining. Take away the accuracy boost from QA and it would make it less useful for Cannon, but almost as useful for sniper. Add an accuracy penalty and it stops being useful, except in CQC.
And if you make it into straight tradeoffs like AP for accuracy and viceversa, without WP cost, it’s just not a very interesting choice in PP: it’s a decision between two odds that are not connected to anything else - there are no “small wheels touching bigger wheels”. For that you would need a bunch of other mechanics that make the choice more than something like “do I want to take 2 shots at 66% chance to hit or 1 shot at 85%?”. For example, if there is a suppression mechanic the choice is more meaningful because you can choose focusing on suppressing the target instead of damaging it. Should PP have more complex shooting mechanics? How complex? That’s a different discussion. Personally I think the game’s focus is and should be elsewhere.
Have you played JG’s Laser Squad Nemesis? In it each player tells each soldier/alien/grey/robot what to do in the next 5 seconds (and sets behavior parameters for reactions) and the turns are resolved simultaneously. Frozen Synapse used the same system, but made it far more arcade. I would love to see LSN’s simultaneous turn resolution in an xcom-type game.
Problem with that is it ceases to be a turn-based game and morphs into something very different.
Given that I doubt Snapshot would alter it that way any time soon, even if they wanted to, let’s concentrate on how to make the game as it is work better.
I have to say, I like the idea of giving an aim penalty to more unwieldy weapons like the SR for close-in shots, and the method for this already exists without making the game more complicated. Simply change the size of the targeting reticle. The stupid thing about the SR as it stands is when a Crabbie’s standing right next to you waving its claw in your face, you can still calmly take careful aim at its eyeball (or mire likely th equivalent of its elbow) and blow its head or arm off, which is ridiculous.
The many posts pointing out that this is what pistols & PDWs are designed for have a point - as do those who argue that the SR needs some downside designed into it. If its reticle at short range was as bad as the HMGs at long, we’d soon all be making sure our Snipers carried pistols.
Indeed, and it has to be built like that from the ground up, I don’t think that even a total conversion would do. And getting the AI to where it has to be must be a nightmare - forget any procedural generation.
Yeah but kinda the point is that it isn’t representing someone standing in the middle of the open, even when they appear to be standing stationary, its representing them moving.
And its much harder to hit even a relatively slow moving target, compared to a stationary target, even more so if its trying to move unpredictably, like any soldier would try and do.
If someone wants to try how something like this - small squad tactics, would play in semi-real-time, check 7.62. It’s focused on small squads and usage of contemporary weapons, leans into direction of the simulator and it’s also and RPG with a bit of open-world and rudimentary “base management”. While a real-time strategy like this is much less gamy than a turn-based game, it has the issue of being much harder to manage if squad is more than let’s say 4 people. On top of that you as player can miss most of the action as a lot of things can be happening outside of your camera perspective. TBS don’t have this problem.
There was also UFO: Aftermath/Aftershock/Afterlight series of games played in real-time with active pause. Aftershock being the most similar to Phoenix Point (three factions with their tech, recruits and diplomacy).
Yeah, I remember it. X-Com Apocalypse has real-time mod too. But I’m not sure if either of these games didn’t anything in regards to precision of shooting at moving targets or that having any effect on what is going on.
XCom Apocalypse was built from the ground up to have TBS and real time with pause and different speeds. IMO, it actually worked really well in real time and it took into account stuff like target movement and the time needed to aim.
Laser Squad Nemesis evolved this further by breaking the action into 5 (or was it 10?) second turns. You could watch a simulation of your move before committing. The advantage of splitting it into turns is that you could play it hotseat with another player, and that you had these wtf moments when your squad run into an ambush and you couldn’t just press pause and order them to get out of there. And the combat between the different “factions” was completely asymmetric.
If there are not that many actions that you could do and if you can keep a good overview of everything that happens - like in Laser Squad Nemesis, then it clearly can work great.
I use turn based mode in Combat Mission as it in a similar fashion - you give orders for next 15 second and see what happens. But, there is a great feature where you can re-watch those 15 seconds like a tape recording again and again from different perspectives. For example, 7.62 doesn’t have this so sometimes you just wonder where that grenade came from or why your sniper is suddenly injured. While you are trying to figure that out in real-time (as it can be hard to tell when paused) something else happens somewhere else and you switch your attention again. In long run, you tend to need a larger team to handle larger crowds or enemies and it gets worse and worse with every extra team member.
To be fair, PP doesn’t have all that many different actions, stances, huge amount of troops or large maps, real-time could works here much better than in 7.62
The problem is I never seen some weapons quoted in this thread, a part is probably because I never had NJ above 49 relationship, not reach in previous campaign, a bug disabled the option for last campaign close to final. I never had the Virus weapons, never before and delayed a lot a chain leading to it in last campaign. And a bug always disabled the option to get the living weapons.
Still I don’t see it’s about only one better weapon, and a lot about more choices allowing strong squads.
Shotgun:
Mercy 25% better range than Iconoclast, 2 bullets less per burst so lowest damages. Still a valid option for some more range, typical is Infiltrator to avoid break stealth, I ignore 100% stealth that shouldn’t be allowed.
Iconoclast max damages lowest range (lowest precision), best spreading. Best common choice overall.
Harrower, make obsolete Fury because ammo cost isn’t significant, higher range than Iconoclast, less damages than Iconoclast but thanks ot a significant armor shredding for double shot cases against armored targets the Iconoclast is no match. So for example with Adrenalin Rush, Quick Aim or Rage Burst it’s a strong choice to consider. It’s also a choice to consider for the extra range.
Sniper Rifle:
Firebird, first choice, made obsolete by factions.
Pythagoras, better range, better damages, larger clip. Best for Rage Burst, best for precisions and huge ranges. Most common better choice making obsolete the Firebird.
Cyclops, best damages only good range for SR. Nest choice for builds with good enough accuracy, and with damages boost, Sniperist, Sneak Attack, Reckless. Strong choice to consider for any build without Rage Burst.
Athena, I’ll admit I only read some players using it late game as main weapon to manage armor and replace kill by paralyze. Not tried yet but at least with a skill like Adrenalin Rush I could consider the option as main weapon. At least it is priceless as secondary weapon.
Heavy weapons:
Hell Cannon, undoubtly a strong choice, as I haven’t seen the NJ upgrade I can’t say.
Acid Cannon, obviously not updated for acid design change limiting damages to 10 per turn.
Dante FT, still don’t get the point.
Deceptor, lowest range compete more with shotguns, 480 damages, Cannon is 180, but Iconoclast is 400 damages. But it is with some shredding, and with Strongman it is 624 damages, when Iconoclast with Close Quarter is 480. It’s a very good option for Assault with Strongman, the apparent lack of mobility is often an extra mobility compared to a double shot with shotgun. Moreover it is even more a killer than Iconoclast for RF. I’d say that it needs perhaps a little boost for shredding and perhaps range.
Goliath is a great complement to Cannon.
AR:
Ares, first choice made obsolete by factions.
Bulldog, quickly the best common choice because of armors upgrade.
Deimos, much better range, better burst and damages than Bulldog is there’s no armor. Useful only for second weapon to use after armor shrink. It’s typically a strong choice for Assault+Berzerk with Armor Break.
“AR are pointless because of shotgun”, that’s borderline true, but at least with Trooper increase accuracy and range it’s a very worthy option, even if as second weapon.
Pistols, I won’t detail, the game point of view is one hand weapon worth it, I have doubts about it. This let 1AP weapons, and Paralyze tool at least with RB.
I won’t detail but I think those are useful too: Poison Crossbow, and sometimes the Crossbow but eventually they need a larger clip, at least a bit. The PDW but haven’t seen the NJ upgrade. And I think virus is underestimated, but there’s perhaps various problems around it, that it’s an effect only after next enemy turn, that armor will often stop virus weapons.
This let:
PP weapons are upgrade by factions beside for Cannon and Goliath, I’m fine with that.
AR are more secondary weapons but I’m fine with that.
Deceptor needs perhaps a little boost but have already some useful use case.
Virus weapons probably need a better check, and some boost, either through Virus mechanism, either for amount of virus or armor management.
Acid Cannon get bugged because of first patch after release.
Dante FT is hard to understand and certainly need a review.
Pistols probably need a review too, but I can’t say I digged the subject so I’m not sure, at least NJ Pistol and Paralyze pistols are useful.
Close range weapons is a complex topic with already a thread dedicated to it.
I’m not suggesting this ^ in PP. That’s too much work and it’s applicable to pretty much only JA2 as it’s based on huge variety of different weapon systems. You do need plenty of interesting systems to support this 
But yes, we already quite know how things work with weapons. 