Lairs are a boresome slog, needs reinforcements either removed or curbed

So, after postponing the latest two lairs as my first experiences with them has been less than stellar, decided to finish them yesterday. I ended up spending near 7 HOURS in total over the day in those two. There’s much to be criticized including their overly labyrinth-like setup and AI using murder holes, (sirens lying in wait across walls in holes for you to climb or jetpack) unbalanced unit composition, (3 sirens in 4 tiles? more likely than you think) chitons, (I actually had to demolish walls to get to them without being caught by sirens mentioned before) today I’ll talk about reinforcements.

My experience was that every crab, fish and other seafood that died was replaced the next turn, all rushing towards my team in droves. These weren’t even the cannon fodder or earlier missions either, they were better armored and had higher HP than my teams. Mind you, I tried to play without a “scout ahead, reload when spawnery is scouted” method, like, legit. I tried to find it across a labyrinth over 3 hours while getting hammered across all over the map because there not a single turn that reinforcements have a break. The map was littered with bodies by the end.

After the dreadful experience of this, I explored my avenues into ‘cheesing’ the next lair as this was a part of the game that was begging to be cheesed. I was willing to resort to anything short of cheating and I learned 100% stealth infiltrators were one method. Okay, I propped up a recruit and sent her over to hunting the spawnery. And it worked good enough as I kept the rest of the team bunkered at the start. Then she comes across a mist that decloaks her while she’s surrounded by a plethora of seafood. Ouch. She has NO alternate route, only one possible is if a tile of moss that is like 75cm high is broken down.

So I sent the rest of team to break that wall. By the time I got close to it, all hell broke loose. One could argue it was a reeactment of Aliens harchery scene, other could say it was a turn-based Left4Dead spin-off. What was definite however is that it was hellish, tiresome, boresome, atrocious slog of a game that made me consider uninstalling it. I was about to launch up the game and I paused, decided to come here and post this as my time is better spent lobbying against the “kill 1, get 1 next turn!” approach of lair reinforcements.

So I hear they were added recently because people were staying in place to kill everything and win, gasp like I mean, we’re not supposed to like, you know, win and progress in these right? What is being missed in this however is that these lairs aren’t special. They are dime a dozen. They pop up every time you defend a haven. They aren’t THE endgame mission where you attack the mothership, alien world capital or whatever. They don’t give out any reward of note, +10 rep to factions that can be easily lost 5 mins later in a random event. Items received? None. Bonus for killing 50+ aliens? Nothing. No bodies to sell, no loot to salvage. It’s an exercise in futility that takes place in the most dreary levels.

So I say: Either remove reinforcements altogether or bring them down to a quarter or something. Make a hard cap of aliens in a level. The game wasn’t even displaying all of their heads on the bottom was something like 20 spotted at once. The red noise indicators aren’t even included in that. The lairs are too frequent to be this constricting and they are literally asking the player to speedily cheese them however possible. Make them playable, not endurable.


Personally I hate games with respawn, the lairs here is no exception.


I finished my 1st one and oh my god, the grenade launchers! lol!

Reloading after losing so many of my guns the next day, I finally slogged my way through ALOT of mist (the cave was pretty much all mist lol) of it to find the spawn hatching sentinal thing to have that enemy spawn kick in behind me, were I left my guy that was rendered hamburger meat.

It was actually pretty climatic as I just so happened to be destroying the objective while the injured fellow desperately crawled away from a slew of rifles and grenadiers.

That said, my lord, I do not want to face against any of those sirens in these levels. I was personally hoping that these tight quarter levels were just so because of being earlier builds. Hoped for some more open spaces and verticality.

I’m interested to see how this will develop with patches.

I absolutely hate them too.


I agree with the respawn part, it is just a bit too rapid. I’ve learned to deal with it by garrisoning my primary force at the starting point and sending one or two high speed guys at the spawnery… Leaving my starting guys basically to provide nonstop cover fire.

If the lair locations popped up with less frequency I don’t think there would be anything to complain about. But as was mentioned, you get virtually nothing for what is a very frequent, difficult mission, with no rewards, and little to no feeling of accomplishment for it.

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12 attempts and I just reloaded a Geoscape save and did something else. When I start a mission I make a save at the start of turn 1, then I don’t save again until I’ve made some sort of advance.

First time in, 2 soldiers spawn in a hole. They can’t move or shoot. Ok load it again and again and again. Finally got a “procedural” generated map where my entire squad was usable. There is a 4 headed screamer that has no range at all, it can scream all it wants and its an easy kill, just shoot off the heads. Then you have the eggs which don’t do anything unless you get close. Ok now lets see, 6 Tritons, 4 Sirans two something or others I can’t even see covering my squad with goo. Oh there is a tool tip on that. Disperses over time ( 4 turns ) or until its removed. Removed by what? Nothing in the game reveals that! I encountered it in another mission and my troops brought back samples that I researched as fast as I could. "Goo blah blah blah about is chemical composition, its water soluble. Really? An aquatic invader creates a glue that dissolves with water? Oh and the research says it dissipates quickly. Right…yea 4 turns is fast in a game where each turn is a lifetime!

So my whole squad is glued in place, now the siren get close enough, didn’t take long as they can travel across the entire map in 2 turns, then mind control my entire squad. END!


yah i do agree that maybe the factions give you a reserach or weapon or something ANYTHING to make it worthwhile. heck, even if it is cosmedic, like where xcom show the number of killed wall for xcom2 and each alien and how often you killed it.

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woot? but it’s literaly a matter of 1 or 2 turn assuming you have at least one guy with jetpack guys…
You can even cheat your way through the fog of war as the ennemi always spawn in the same open roofed cavern. Easy to spot, jet pack two - 3 times (use kaboom perk and equip grenade in hand, it will lower the jetpack cost, yup, really). Then if you lack ap just rely on one or two assault guys with the +1 ap (each soldier can only use it once per turn BUT multiple assault can spam it.)

Once your heavy is in the pit, usualy at first turn, just leave him there and bunker the other guys. Then in next turn, release the kraken, or use his 7th ability if you have it, otherwise, smash the thing using MELEE not his weapon. One turn, two if the lair is really deep, end of history…

I know how to cheese, I’m not asking how to cheese, I’m asking for a mission that doesn’t need cheesing, as I explained in detail. Last time I did it in 15mins with a 100% stealth invisible soldier pumping spawnery full of poison. That doesn’t mean it’s okay now, it means it’s in terrible shape.

What was the point of reinforcements? To prevent overwatch cheese I’m told. So now we’re cheesing with other methods. That means it’s worse than before. Just roll the reinforcements back and let those who want to overwatch do that and let others who want to do it legit, do that way. The solution is much worse than the problem, undo the solution.


well, it’s a way to push player to use different abilities than the ones used in other missions, being with a cheesy way is maybe not the best one but better than having players doing exactly the same things in 200 missions

Yeah, lairs are tedious if you do not play them as Lemdoran suggests. And if you do they are boring.
In one of the backer builds the spawnery could be gotten in LOS on turn 1 by jetpacking to a high pillar. Pandorans couldn’t shoot you up there… I like that it was made harder, but now the mission is begging to be cheesed.
The Nests were more fun - fight your way through dark tunnels. It was atmospheric and felt right.
The Lairs on the other hand.

Had Sirens never enter LOS, just spam their scream. -10 Will per Siren to the whole team. Everyone was running panicked every single turn while being bombarded from Chirons from across the map.
So Jetpacks it is from now on.

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i’ve put my lair clearing on hold the last few days. I must have killed 4 sirens, along with 20 crab guys, a chiron, and various tritons in my first lair, reloading and trying over and over again. It took me a while to figure out that they just keep coming.

I tried using my heavy to jetpack as far as possible to figure out where the spawner is. I cant find it before either he get’s mind controlled or my squad get’s destroyed.

I noticed last night, although I have yet to clear a lair, there is already a citadel on the map. That, doesn’t look promising.

Lairs are pretty much broken, restarted twice on the one i’m doing right now, 7 lvl 7 guys and one lvl4, first time i had 3 screamers on map, 1 in sight at start of mission, 2 sirens by turn 2 and 2 acid lobbers way in back, that means i’m looking at +6 things to shoot at every turn, along with my 2 snipers using all shots and some will to try and control the sirens, it doesn’t leave much to do anything else with.

Second time in wasn’t just as bad, still 2 sirens, 2 acid spitters, 1 screamer and an uncounted no of trash kicking around, trying to jetpack over to where the objective might be was pointless, bit times i tried it i ended up too close to a siren you can see when you start your jump, so mind controlled well short and a man down.

This is on normal, so without building a very specific team of OP chars there is just no way i can do this, id call that broken every time. everything about it from enemy composition, map generation and difficulty curve just does not work.

I like the game, but this isnt something i can just play through, hope it gets fixed and is ready to be relaunched soon…


Can you possibly spec your dudes to just trounce those lair levels?
I’m actually quite interested to mess around with this, as I’ve got 2 lairs that I’ve got to fumigate with bullets…hehe

I’m almost thinking a mix of heavily armored scouts to soak up grenades and bullets, followed by dashing shot gunners. lol!

It can be done, though i havent managed it yet, just seems to be a small amount of map generation luck and cheesing the classes to be very specific to get it all done

I’d say remove the respawns and they’re perfectly fine. Make the AI not move towards the player but instead stay put at least until the annoying humans are engaged, then try to box them in. One fun (glorious) battle later, the spawnery is ripe for picking or the squad is down.

NO respawns.


I like this solution, simple and for me it works, i generally have the mobs under control right up till the 4th or 5th Siren LOL

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Wouldnt necessarily remove respawns completely. You are in Enemy territory afterall. But maybe add a counter. Like reinforcements start to arrive 5 Turns after the first enemy engagement. So you cant just overwatch crawl but dont have to cheese it.


Pretty much the only time I wish I could just type Win in the command prompt.
I really dont like lairs. Nests I can live with they are quick enough but lairs are just not fun.


Yeah, Lairs are pretty annoying. I like Nests and LOVE the Citadels but always debate actually killing a Lair or just running defense the rest of the game.
I like the idea of a cap on respawns or atleast space them out by a few turns. Fighting 3 sirens is hard enough because they can mindcontrol you from behind walls, in holes, extremely far away and move 2/3 of a Lair map in 1 turn.

They should have a limit on what type of Chiron is in there also. Acid bombers and goo bombers got to go. I know goo Chirons are just a mild annoyance but having to wait 30+ min for it to run out of ammo so you can actually move your guys towards the obj, while fighting enemys, is really frustrating and really takes away from the game for me.

Edit: Sirens also seem to be able to MC while paralyzed so if they are perfectly placed you cant get past them without killing them, allowing another to respawn.