I’m spending way too much of this game murdering humans

It’s most of the way through January and I’m into the fourth week of my Legend campaign. I load up my saved game and take a look at how things are going.

I’ve currently got two full teams of soldiers deployed, with a scout team on exploration duty and a C-team on the way. I’m allied with New Jericho (75+ rep) and working on getting to Aligned status with Synedrion (49 rep) and Anu (35 rep). My reputation with Anu is a little low since a week or two ago I raided a couple of their havens, killed all their defenders, and blew up their power plants, but I’m sure they’ll get over it. If I can get Anu to like me it’ll get me the Priest class and some nice leg armour.

So, the first thing to do is kill some Anu. I’m playing the Legacy of the Ancients DLC and the current mission is to steal a weapon blueprint from one of their havens, which I do by murdering my way through all the defenders. I don’t suffer a reputation hit, so apparently they don’t particularly mind.

Next job is to kill some Synedrion. I’ve got 3 aircraft at the moment but could really use a fourth so that I can explore faster. I want a Helios for the speed, but I can’t afford to pay 250 tech and 1200 materials this early in the game, and I’m not aligned with Synedrion so I couldn’t build one even if I wanted to. So I find a Synedrion haven with an aircraft and go steal it. I slaughter the defenders, shooting them in the arms to stop them using their weapons and then shooting them in the back when they try to run away, and fly off over their bodies in my shiny new Helios. The raid gives me a -6 faction hit with Synedrion, but since I was at 49 rep that doesn’t actually make any difference because I can’t go to 50 until I complete their diplomacy mission anyway, so I might as well raid them now so that I’m getting some benefit next time I clear a Lair or Nest or defend one of their havens.

Speaking of defending havens, an Anu haven is getting attacked. I fly my A-team over and save the day! I also hit an exploration event that let me side with Anu over Syn, and combined with the +12 for the haven defence this pushes my Anu rep up to 49. The Anu diplomat congratulates me and tells me that they want me to go murder a bunch of New Jericho soldiers who are occupying some sacred site. The only dialog option I’m given is “yes, I’ll do it” so it’s time for some more murder! We fly over and kill the soldiers of my ally for committing the crime of standing around in a cathedral or whatever. Anu are very happy and now I’ve got their tech.

Next mission after killing the NJ soldiers is clearing a Pandoran Lair. The +10 bonus pushes my rep with NJ to 100. Tobias West contacts me personally, tells me how great the Phoenix Project is and what close allies we are, and gifts me a truckload of resources. I’m wondering if he’s going to bring up the fact that a week ago I raided a NJ haven and killed all the soldiers there to extract some doctor called Helena, but apparently NJ have forgotten all about it.

Since we’re in the area, I figure I might as well do the next Blood and Titanium mission, which requires me to attack a Synedrion haven that’s also getting attacked by the Pure. It’s not really explained why I’m supposed to be killing the defenders as well, but whatever, I’ve given up trying to make sense of this storyline. I fly in and kill all the Synedrion soldiers, then kill all the Pure as well. Somehow this opens up some extra bionic tech, which is too expensive to use right now but which might come in handy later.

In the meantime, I’m about ready to do the Synedrion diplomacy mission, which’ll give me Aligned status with Synedrion as well. I raid a Phoenix Base occupied by humans and kill everyone inside, including the leader, who according to the Synedrion AI is a ‘Pirate King’. Well, whoever he was, he’s dead now. Athena from Synedrion is very pleased and we have a friendly chat about which Synedrion faction I should share the materials with first. We part on very good terms.

Time for the next LotA mission. I’m supposed to attack some Synedrion group to get the blueprints for something called the ‘Scorpion’. I kill my way through the Synedrion defenders, grab the objective, and evac once everyone from Synedrion is dead.

The week comes to an end. I have 97 rep with NJ, 69 with Anu, and 62 with Synedrion. Everyone in the world thinks that the Phoenix Project is absolutely wonderful.

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It’s a strange virtual world these people live in :-p

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Yeah, It’s like Walking Dead Syndrome. After 2. season, zombies were just background.

I don’t have problem with factions, but I wish the reputation missions would come from missions involving Panderans rather then humans. They could just send us to missions to clear their zones from Pandoras rather then want to kill each other. To be honest there is not much gain to them from killing each other.

Another problem is, mutations of pandoras starts with PX. I mean, is the earth lose to basic pandorans? Every faction can easily, easier then PX itself, handle pandorans at the star of the game. This was always the problem with the x-com games as logic. Why does alien invasion just attack with ful force at the beginning? There are some excuse stories for those but still, not logical.

So yes… I am killing humans too… Everyone is killing humans. Sometimes pandorans get 2 mutation before I see any pandoran at battlefield. As pandoran does not have so much type to fight for, you stuck with humans and 2 humanoid alien types. You can’t feel the excitement of Xcom series when you think which race you will fight against.

The biggest problem of all the xcom types that they have humans or humanoid aliens… Frax Xcom 2 failed me so badly with all 2 leg-2 arm-1 head walking alien types… even they are mostly not aliens. The only a bit different alien types were snakes… Give me some aliens to fight, creatures which does not like or act like human… People does not like TFTD so much but I still think it’s the best xcom with everything… at least we got so many different races and big support creatures with them…

Xenonauts 2 is in development and GOD, everything is human based… everything got hands… even creatures which does not use weapons got hands… Robots got hands…

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Wonderfully put.

and I make up my own :stuck_out_tongue: “No, I didn’t slaughter NJ troopers to retrieve Helena, I contacted Tobias West, my long trusted ally, and exchanged for a release!”

With the release of LoA I’ve adopted the idea that the game might be better off not attempting to tell a story… because the gameplay is really far disjointed from it.

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Don’t worry about it.

This game somehow thinks that Communists can agree on politics without become violent and killing people who disagree with them (Synedrion)… much less demolishing the Synedrion democracy and replacing it with a single-party dictatorship… and barring that… that everyone else who disagrees with each other would much prefer to be extinct by destroying each other despite their exceptionally limited resources - rather than fighting the organisms exterminating them.

Realism (or at least expected story progression), given this apocalyptic scenario, is not Phoenix Point’s strong suite.

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I defend all havens of the last of humanity I can,
Factions have not yet gone to war, but some are on hostile terms and I have started building 5 MistRepellers and have 72% population …

The background story is there, it’s just our interaction with the story that often becomes bogus, with betrayals not actually affecting relationships, and allies continuing to attack one another.

What? The very first Synedrion mission asks you to kill some individuals who are causing problems within their haven. You face off against raiders, so it’s easy to assume they’re just strangers attacking the Haven, but on Legend there’s also a Synedrion Infiltrator in there which suggests its infighting.

… and that’s pretty presumptive and reductive of Communism… people of all stripes can become violent and kill others who disagree with them, and I’m not really sure what Communism has to do with that. Should we argue that Democracy is only people killing one another or rioting, abuse of power and dictatorial subjugation when they can’t agree with one another? …because a current glimpse at the news might suggest that, if one were to just leave it at that.

I’d first like to say “Sure sounds like the humanity I’ve become familiar with!” (once again, news)

Let’s talk about NJ and Anu though. Anu is a religious cult hellbent on ascending through abandonment of humanity’s past and changing themselves into a new life form, and that the Pandoravirus is a gift. NJ is the exact opposite who are hellbent on wiping every trace of the virus off the face of the earth… clearly there’s a conflict of interests here that would undoubtedly result in war.

The very first NJ mission has you kill off “strangely behaving and violent” troops that are hinted at succumbing to the virus. On Legend there’s also an Anu priest present, which suggests that they’re not just succumbing to the virus, but that Anu is assisting in this manner… that Anu is a direct threat to NJ, and Tobias West wants you to see this and side with him against them and the virus. Where if you play the Anu mission, you see that the Pandorans are actually unleashing Chirons on them, and attacking their infrastructure… they’re not allies, but good luck of convincing NJ of that because clearly tensions between the two are sky high.

As the world descends into war later in the game, I see Synedrion’s involvement as being a result of members conflicting with one another. Half of Synedrion sides with NJ, and the other half (roughly) sides with Anu. That leads the faction to assisting both NJ and ANU in the war they end up waging against one another, and of course, leads to Anu and NJ to respond in kind. So in the end, everyone is fighting everyone BECAUSE they’re trying to save themselves and preserve the things they care about most, against one another.

None of this is presented very well in-game though I don’t think (vaguely hinted at or alluded to, if I’m even right about any of this). Other than the easter-egg-like Legend-only suggestions, there’s not much to really explain how the descent into world chaos really unfolds. All we get are a bunch of research milestones (the triggers) and popup scenes that tell us that one faction or another is losing trust in the other because of their advancements…

Now honestly, I think that was a mistake in design. I was presented with the idea that because each faction is getting stronger and developing more tools against the Pandorans, that they now begin to distrust and hate each other more… all merely because of that! Sounded so bogus and counter-intuitive “Why would you dislike someone just because they invented something that’ll help everyone save themselves?”

But thinking about it more, I can’t say it’s just that, I’d say very little has to actually do with the research (story-wise) and that these research-complaints they bring to you is really just their propaganda attempts to try and convince you to stop cooperating with their long-time enemies who they’re growing increasingly worried of. Not specifically because of the research, but how that research amplifies a once negligible force into something that could one day destroy their vision of a world that should exist. That it really mostly boils down to NJ worrying that ANU is just a growing army for the Pandorans and must be dealt with. (Synedrion also complains about NJ delving too much into Bionics and Neural technology, but Blood and Titanium clears that up in a… very unsatisfying way)

Maybe I’m just seeing things where I want to see them, but the world fighting a war during a virus that’s ravaging humanity makes sense to me… I mean… it’s happened before.

The allusions on the first missions are brilliant and amazing (if I’m right about them :P) and I love that… (Edit: my mistake, I came across the points again where the game kind of tells you all of this, so there is some popups that tell you what’s going on that I forgot about.) I don’t remember ever being provided with evidence during the progression through diplomacy to help convince me of the wrongdoings of other factions and their failings towards humanity (even if it’s just more propaganda). There’s no ability to contact the other factions and asks them questions, and gain impressions of the state of things based on their opinions.

There’s a tough decision between delivering a story through endless exposition (flat-out telling you) or making you think about the world you’re living in, and how those who are communicating with you may actually be lying, manipulative and misleading towards you to generate a more living and realistic feeling world (or some combination of). I appreciate their attempts, there’s a little of both it appears.

This isn’t a world where Humans unite to fight a common enemy, this is a world where Humans don’t magically change in their behaviour or beliefs just because a common threat emerges… (or at least I think it’s supposed to be, because as soon as we install LoA, all of that gets thrown out the window once your ally starts attacking you senselessly but still sending you love notes. :stuck_out_tongue: )

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It’s hard to implant a good and complex story and RPG elements to a x-com game like this. Sometimes simple is better, sometimes you need to stop some point. I like factions but our battle is with Pandorans. Why do I need to kill a power plant when the earth is dying?

Pandorans should be a very sharp thread, at least at mid game. They become a thread but not against factions. I don’t want to save factions as it’s not logical that they need PX to do that. BUT I would rather expect pandoran attacks, which can nobody defend against… You can only stop it by preventing it with fighting pandoras. There should be much more pandoran based mission types, like pandoran bases. It could be some multi level missions… sabotage them, stealing something from them, ambush them…

Pandorans could have their own factions like races at UFO… different mutations… one from sea based, some ground based… bird based, dinosaur based…

You start to this game when earth is already lost but it does not look like that. We should try to survive when the earth is already lost. We could be in the middle of “pandoran world with different pandoran factions” rather then humans… There are 3 big faction, 2 side faction and 1 ancient faction… and just one pandorans…

I would like to see civilian rescue missions, like in that being the objective. In a haven attack, instead of simply killing all enemies, they could be overwhelmed with just too much enemies coming in (at once or through reinforcements) and PX’s objective would be only to retrieve civs, maybe crates too.

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This would be a real evac mission. Save someone or something from a pandoran territory.

Communism is notorious for that. Nothing in my comments about them not making sense in the real world precludes that others aren’t capable of violence either, though.

But Marxism (Communism/Marxist Socialism) is the most violent ideology, arguably, in the history of our species. It has resulted in more deaths than even Nazism (One variety of non-Marxist Socialism). Stalin killed up to 85 million. Mao killed over 100 million. Hitler killed 12 million… And if you cut them down to how long Hitler was in power, Stalin then killed 30 million in the same period of time, and Mao approximately 50 million.

The vast majority of those people were guilty of wrong think. And Communists are just as violent towards other Communists who don’t quite agree on the “right” communism. Purges always happen in those governments.

So yeah, other ideologies can have violence… that’s obvious and not even being debated here. But no other ideology reacts to people who have the wrong opinion quite as violently as Communists.

Democratic ideals and reasonable discussion with differing opinions are completely mutually exclusive to Communism.

So that is why it is a pretty silly thing acting like Synedrion can:

  1. Have reasoned debate with no violence among their Communist citizens
  2. Not be led by someone who has seized power under this system

Granted, Synedrion embodies the Utopian ideals of Communism. But those ideals are not possible in reality as long as humans have free will, enjoy power, are capable of being unreasonable, and do not have the cohesive communal/social behaviors of something similar to ants or bees.

But you glossed over my point being how Synedrion doesn’t make sense in the real world, and that being related to the “it doesn’t much make sense that I fight humans so much when we have a threat like the Pandorans”. I’m basically responding to that by saying… “because not a lot makes sense given this scenario. It’s just suspension of disbelief, I guess”

That’s if you view Synedrion as Communists.

Personally, I see them as Democratic Anarchists, a very different beast.

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What a weird forum for propaganda to emerge.

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None of what I said about the numbers killed is “propaganda”, it is objective and inarguable fact (granted these are “up to” numbers. The minimum death counts are around 10-20% less). Anyone can interpret these numbers in their own subjective way, though. But I’d say my interpretation is pretty straightforward. I’d say a lot of people’s history teacher’s failed them, unfortunately.

Communists being called evil should be no more controversial than saying Nazis are evil. They’ve killed and oppressed far more people than Nazis, even. But sadly, about 4 decades of extreme indoctrination has turned much of the 1st world into ignorant people who know nothing about Communism and will defend it when presented with unassailable facts about it.

I’ve said my piece on that part of the discussion.

As for @Michaellgnotis, they claim they are in-game. I don’t remember what dialogue or descriptor it was that explicitly said “Communist”… but they talk about Marxist concepts throughout the game, like “bourgeoisie”. One haven asked me a question about whether the Phoenix Project was part of the bourgeoisie yesterday. That is a uniquely Marxist concept.

Additionally, here is a screenshot of one Synedrion haven with a motto that is the Marxist motto, or the single phrase that describes Communism entirely:

“From each, according to their abilities. To each according to their needs.”

Says the chud claiming an explicitly anarchist faction are “Communists” (with a capital C, to really drive home the political ignorance of your typical fashy).

You also believe the conspiracy theory that academia is a left wing con, based on the DM you sent me yesterday. Will quote the exchange if anyone is interested in Aryan Sock here outing themself.

I recommend everyone watch the interview in 1984 with former KGB Yuri Bezmenov who defected before the fall if the Soviet Union. He explains the psychology and indoctrination that would eventually lead to Luna and others like them to react so angrily to objective facts about the dangers of Communism and how it is equally as bad or even worse than Naziism.

He also explains exactly why Luna feels compelled to call me a fascist when I am literally calling out fascists like the Nazis as evil. It is a fascinating insight into the careful and slow indoctrination that leads to someone like Luna. It was easy to dismiss Yuri as an agent or untrustworthy back when the interview happened, but everything he said is now coming 100% true.

Only a truly and thoroughly brainwashed person could say that someone calling Nazis and Communists the most evil people on Earth is an “Aryan” aka Nazi. That is impressive doublethink.

Also of note, I provided direct evidence that Synedrion is communist. They even explicitly say they are in one situation. I will try to find that dialogue in the game files if it isn’t compiled into the binary.

Immediately after spreading their proganda.

Nevertheless, I’ll take you at your word; you aren’t a fascist, congratulations on passing that extremely low bar. Might wanna look into what’s causing you to spout the same nonsense as them then. Stay based “comrade” :wink:

So is it normal to kill communist s at this game?

Aside the joke… What was the topic?

Objective and unassailable facts are not propaganda. What I said is raw facts about the people murdered by Communists. And your thorough brainwashing has turned you into what Communists refer to as a “useful idiot”. You been conditioned to ignore objective and inarguable historical facts, and this is by design. Because Communism would not survive unless the majority of people pushing it were not conditioned thoroughly to deny it’s evils, oppression, and murder. Exactly how Nazis operate, as there is no other way people would rationalize the atrocities they commit in the name of Naziism and Communism.

So congrats on supporting either Communism or Naziism, the two most evil ideologies in mankind’s history

Protip: It is common for Communists to lash out and call others fascists for daring to have any opinion right of Communism, including holding democratic ideals like free speech. But sanity, reality, and cold historical facts about these two evil ideologies will never be “what Nazis say” Nazis don’t go around calling out their own atrocities. And neither do Communists.

Here’s a quote often falsely attributed to Winston Churchill, but was actually said by an Italian politician just after the fall of fascist Mussolini, "the fascists of the future will call themselves anti-fascist. You seem to have accidentally outed yourself as one of those fascists. Congrats; you played yourself.

Consider this my mic drop. I’m done here.

Well, I started the topic to talk about how the current version of Phoenix Point’s diplomacy system encourages the player to act in this weirdly sociopathic way where you buy factional loyalty with murder.

Then the thread got hijacked into an argument between one person who wants to write long posts about political theory and another who wants to call other people subhuman.

(seriously, guys, could you take it to PMs rather than having it out in this thread? thanks.)

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