A question about Pandora evolution

I have a question about Pandora Evolution System. How it really works? I had asked this question before in the topic that was blocked. There, I got a reply that Pandorans do evolve, but apparently, I wasn’t clear about what I meant.

The part that is interesting me is adaptive evolution as described here on fig: https://www.fig.co/campaigns/phoenix-point/about

The Pandoravirus can mutate living forms, and it can incorporate DNA from multiple species and clone them rapidly. You will face an alien threat that mutates and evolves new forms in response to your tactics. Our procedural generation system for the aliens can generate a huge variety of challenges and surprises for you on the battlefield.

Is this adaptive evolution a feature of the game? For me, this is one of the main features that differ this game from other of it’s kind and have convinced people to support this project. At least it should if it works.

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There is no adaptive evolution - which bugs a lot of us and has prompted a ticket on Canny which the devs are considering: https://phoenixpoint.canny.io/feedback/p/modify-the-way-the-pandorans-evolve
and https://phoenixpoint.canny.io/snapshot-proposed-changes/p/pandoran-research-system

Adaptive Evolution was replaced by the DDA (Dynamic Difficulty Algorythm), which simply adds Armour, HP and Damage to the existing Panda genotypes until they become 1-shotting unstoppable tanks. To be fair on Snapshot, they have and still are working to fix this as well, so there is some light at the end of the tunnel, but it is slow and nowhere near what most of us expected.

My take on this? The original concept simply proved too complex to roll out in the timeframe they had before release, so they tried to ‘fix’ it with the DDA. Snapshot’s representatives still persist in calling the DDA ‘Pandoran Evolution’, and any time they do, we point out that this is not evolution.

We’re getting there slowly, and in time I think we will get something akin to what we were hoping for. But it will take time, because to be fair to them, it’s a very complex thing to implement.

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From what I am aware of Evolution system exist, it just isn’t adaptive. Both Arthron and Triton have 2 sets of body parts. One set is not evolved, second is. Evolution is process where those not evolved are gradually replaced by evolved parts. Of course those evolved parts only mean: more HP and/or armor and/or speed and/or stealth and/or stronger abilities (mostly more damage). This leads to as you said bullet sponges or even 1-shotting unstoppable tanks.

DDA is to adjust difficulty if player performs differently than is expected. So it adds more enemies (on the same evolution level) to battles and allow aliens to spend more evolution points on different mutations. But it doesn’t just add some abstract armor or hp or damage to aliens. It allows evolution system to research evolved parts quicker.

EDIT: So DDA can reduce enemy count on the mission but I’m not sure it it can reduce (revert) alien evolution.

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Though it’s very hard to tell what’s going on there because RNG also plays a large part in determining deployment, it’s not uncommon to see different kinds of Pandas on the same map, some less evolved than others (e.g. No carapace and 20-40 strength carapace, 35 damage MG and 50 dmg MG…)

But yes, DDA and evolution are separate things.

I have seen this happen. It is more prominent early game. If suffering high damage/casualties (not necessarily death). That is until DDA kicks back in. Examples that I have encountered after the Leviathan patch:

  • Having trouble with Arthrons with evolved armor, the armor is removed in future encounters. Success leads to reintroduction of armor.

  • A battle against Arthrons with acid grenade launchers, the launchers are removed on most Arthrons and replaced with shields in future encounters. Success and the shields are once again replaced with launchers.

  • Trouble with Tritons with special abilities can lead to them being removed for future encounters.

What I have seen where this is not true, facing highly evolved enemies early on. Especially noticed in early special missions far, far away from any red mist. Where one faces fully evolved enemies including Sirens and Chirons where no Lairs could/should exist. It appears that special missions are scripted to have evolved Pandorans no matter what level the DDA is for the player.

I believe that @UnstableVoltage addressed the latter in a reply in First Mission on easy:

We’re changing the way this works in a future patch. Pandoran forces and their mutations will be more linear, though they will still have several unique upgrade paths, tied to their tech tree. The point at which they mutate and which path options are open to them will also be somewhat tied to the player’s progression.

You need to remember that also every alien base when generated have access to those evolved body parts but it looks like they choose them randomly (or maybe DDA select those for them?).

Yes, understood. But the examples I site take place in the early game and so are in the same area as any original nest (not even time to turn into a lair - or move into another zone with different Pandoran bases). It’s therefore more likely that DDA (post-Leviathan) is evolving/de-evolving what is present in the missions.

If you destroy the nest then a new one will come up mostly with different “evolution” (if any, I would more say different random body parts).
Also there is a possibility that 2 nests are in the same mist zone with very different body parts and I’m somewhat sure not according to my actions, so no “evolution”

It seems for me, that the story missions are mostly preset and only differs somewhat in the count of enemies. For instance, I almost have Tritons with Iconoclast in the first “Symes Retreat”, even when all other Tritons that I encounter at this time on other places are only equipped with pistols.

I am talking about early game in a zone with next to no red mist. I haven’t yet even found a nest, let alone destroy one. The mist (if it is even close) is next to nothing, so there is no room for 2 or more nests. Pandoran bases have a range in which they can launch attacks on havens and bases. If the mission takes place 1000’s of km away from any mist, how can there be highly evolved Pandorans?

In my mind (again we are talking early game), based on lore, evolution, etc. There may be early Pandorans without advanced evolution wandering far away from any nest. These are the ones that one would assume would be the early enemies.

But, you are very correct in saying that story/special missions are scripted. In so much that they violate the lore. But, this does not apply to early scavenge missions and ambushes.

Ohh … I completely forget these missions.
Yes, it seems you’re right, but they look like completely random and independent from nearby pandoran structures.

Edit: forget a “but”, now this makes more sense …

I really should follow this forum much earlier. So many interesting things to learn here. Such as Developers “Considering” features under which they sold their product. You do not see such things every day.

I have some more question, So, if @UnstableVoltage or some other person from Snapshot Games could answer them I, as your concern customer, would be grateful.

  1. As I learned in this topic adaptive evolution that guides Pandora Organisms mutation according to response to players tactics, do not exist in your released game. This is one of your feature that advertised your campaign on fig. My question in this regard are:
    a). Do you intend to honour your obligations from the beginning of the campaign to put this feature in your game?
    b). Was there any information to your existing and potential customers about lack of this feature in your released by now game?

  2. I have found out here https://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2018-08-13-phoenix-point-crowdfunding-breaks-usd2-million-heres-how-it-was-done that you menage to rise 2,154,262$ in total, so 4 times your original goal, and almost a million more than the final goal. But on fig the number is 765,948$. Extra money were obtained by other sources I assume, I count myself to this category because I have purchased my Luxury Digital Edition in pro-order on day 04/08/2018. My question is:
    a). Do those extra money counts to the goals? If yes it looks like you reached the final goal + almost a million extra, not to cont money form Epic that have to more then double that.

  3. On fig campaign, there we can find:

In order to realize our vision of high quality, deep strategy game by the end of 2018 we need to expand our team.

My question is:
a). How much this game was delayed? So it looks like a yera+, but I would like to have official word on that, Doesn’t have to be precise to a day.

Now some questions that are not necessarily directed for developers, but I still encourage them to take part. It will be good to see all points of view.

  1. Where there any other dropped features that were announced before release? If yes, with one and what about them now?

  2. Don’t you have a feeling when looking on media materials on fig campaign site that differs quite radically from what we received? There it looks grim and grimy meanwhile now the game looks like some cheap si-fi cartoon. I don’t want to offend anybody with this statement. This is just my subjective opinion.

I thank you for the answers and contribution, and I wish you all a great day.

This is all very important and interesting, but can you describe your ultimate goal?

I’m glad you find this important and interesting. My ultimate goal is absolute world domination and eternal life.

As for now, I would like to gather some information about the project I invested in. As I was saying, I have not followed this forum diligently, so some things may be not obvious to me. Campaign goals, for example. I don’t know if there are founded or not. I haven’t seen any floating bases, or underwater missions so far. Another thing that greatly interests me is the relation between what I was buying 09/24/2017 to what I have received. In the picture that I have, for now, I’m most disappointed by this game. I have doubts about the compatibility between what was announced and what was in the final product too. Additionally, based on information that I have time, and financial circumstances were most favourable for Snapshot Games. In both cases, they had much more of both than they initially assumed. But as I said, I haven’t followed forum nor updates to much.

It turned out that I have both Digital Download Edition earlier too. So I have 2 keys. Is it possible to refound one if it wosen’t redeemed?

New campaign - I am quite loving it so far. I wanted to ask if anyone knows more about how the new evolution system works - it seems to be right now, that once new “types” of enemy are unlocked all of them (or at least the most advanced versions of each type) have a chance to appear.

Do I understand it correctly that Panda Bases no longer specialise in certain configurations? Or do bases still produce certain types, and reinforcements have a chance to throw a wrench into the mix?

Just went through and ambush which was actually qute enjoyable - a pretty substantial mix of enemies with some enemies requried priotization, some of them being closer range, some long range, some dangerous some less so. And it was purely composed of Tritons and Arthrons with two mind fraggers in the mix. Mixing different types I think is far better, then having just one or two.

Alien bases don’t produce single mutations anymore. They have different mixes of subspecies.

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