Research progress and lack of soldier benefits

Hi, I just wanted to check in to ask a question about research and gear upgrades. Is there more to come?

I reckon i researched about 20 topics in my BB5 game before i finally got a new bit of kit - A Stun gun.

So nearly all research topics just seem to lead to another topic and as the enemies get tougher (Sirens, chirons etc) I’m still using the same armour and weapons as day 1. Am i missing something?

cheers

I did search the forums before posting this, if its been discussed elsewhere please could someone give me a link so i can have a read?

cheers

If you want new tech you have to do the diplomatic missions or raid the factions.

I’m sure BB5 doesn’t contain the complete tech tree.

ahh thats good to know. Not sure i get the pure science thing… In times of war science tends to be more goal focused around defensive and offensive applications.

I am REALLY hoping that we’re just seeing the tip of the iceberg as far as gear goes. The stuff you get from the factions isn’t ‘better’ than what PP gets, per se, it’s just different. Marginal upgrade at best. If this is all we have to go on, the gear we see here in the beta is ALL that we get, then this game is going to not impress a lot of people. Considering every X-COM game, clone or otherwise copy has had research and gear progression of at least 3 tiers, if they just completely strip that out in favor of “but the factions have gear, too!”, I’m going to be livid as all hell.

There were many players who complained that there were weapon tiers, and that starting gear was useless in recent XCOMs. Developing next tier made previous tier obsolete. All that happened in the span of few months (such rapid advancement of human weaponry). All that was not so realistic, but well we were invaded by highly advanced alien species (who, to be true, should obliterate human civilisation in a month) - so it was kind of stealing tech. In Phoenix Point enemy is different. It doesn’t bring any new weapon technology from space which we can learn. This is why it would be strange if there would be any next tier.

Beside that, I think that the point in Phoenix Point is to adapt your tactic to changing enemy, not to level up your weapons by 300%. This is game setting where you don’t develop single plasma gun or if you prefer “super sonic, hyper level ultra cannons”. Enemy will develop mutations which will prevent some weapons from functioning, and you will just need to switch to other weapons, but all those weapons will be similar in raw power, they will just omit enemy evolved resistance.

I agree with this, however we are in a warfare situation, and wars generally bring advancements in technology, whether that it via stealing ideas from your opposition, or the research team on your own side.

Which reinforces the point above - we have an enemy that can develop new mutations, but we as humans are the most adaptable creature on this planet, and being adaptable is one of our greatest strengths. We would as a species be instantly looking for ways to combat those new mutations.

It doesn’t matter or not whether our new weaponry is a higher tier, many would be improvised and homemade, but that new weaponry should certainly crop up in response to the enemy.

I think you could even argue that the weaponry we develop should be dependant upon the opponents mutations; rather than following a linear path, if we’re fighting lots of crabmen with shields our techs should be developing weaponry to overcome crabmen with shields.

Yes… that’s true, for well funded and maintained organisations like governments or international corporations. It’s no longer available as countries collapsed and the worlds best special force operators are scattered around the globe and fighting to find every single base.

Humans were the most adaptable creatures on this planet, as in most cases we are limited by our morality or science standards. Right now we face a threat of enemy who doesn’t care about anything to reach their goal

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The way aliens develop mutation is sometimes weird.

In first missions Arthrons had MG and grenades, now they use shields and pincers; Tritons had fog, chameleon and rifles, now they have regen blood suck and pistols. Both have some 20 HPS more but considering the weakness of their weapons it isnt a big hassle.

My campaign start was a real pain in the arse now i’m strolling in the park with my childs and my main concern is leveling the new recruits to have two decent squads

Some mutation like fog and grenades are by far the most powerful; it’s true that evolution works by attempts to find the most adaptable way, but fighting snipers in the fog with soldiers without last tier skills is little fun while now i finish missions in three four turns, time to find the enemies and they are dead

A group doesn’t need to be well funded or maintained in order to be innovative, rather in many cases, it is that exact lack of funding that necessitates innovation as an alternative to the common use of standard weaponry and equipment. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insurgency_weapons_and_tactics

Especially, if we consider that Phoenix Point are considered to be the world’s best special force operatives, they ‘would’ find a way to be effective, with or without funding.

(As an aside, I think the issue in itself would not be a lack of funding, as equipment could be taken by rule of force, if anything prevents Phoenix Point from acquiring top tier equipment it more a question of access and opportunity).

In most cases, most organisations of the 21st century ‘are’ limited by morality or science standards, however there have been times in history where this has not been the case, and there are exceptions across the global even now in our relatively peaceful times.

The in-game situation that we’re presented with falls outside of ‘most cases’ and I feel that given the choice between a moral extinction, or an immoral survival of the species that humanity would seek to survive as a species by any means.

I am generally against straight up better weapon tier - in Firaxis xcom to me that means that only the middle tier is enjoyable - I find yearly weapons become obsolete too easily, while the plasma tier is skewed too much in favour of players. I see it as a way of faking “you got better” feeling, but I can just see through it too easily.

I would rather see new technologies being developed for based weapons (addon buffing maybe only one aspect of the weapons, ammo types with special effects etc,) rather than simply making straight up better weapons. I wasn’t never into numerical raise in power, though I know many people enjoy that kind of stuff.

However, feeling of progress has to be there, and making your stuff better is a fairly simple way of achieving that.

Ideally, I would like to see my Phoenix Point develop in unique ways with strengths and weaknesses, but that’s a tough goal to strive forward and core XCOM games never went into this territory. Faction’s unique research seems to attempt to fulfill this role, by offering unique functionality depending on your stance with other leaders.

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Wait for a second… because at the beginning you are talking about “advancements in technology”, while an hour later you are talking about improvised Molotov cocktails.
I know, that spec operators are extremely resourceful guys, I know them.
However, it’s resourcefulness on the ‘how to build a trap in a jungle’ or ‘how to create a silencer’ or ‘how to mine your decoy house’ level.
Not ‘how to analyze alien mutant and adapt his grenade launcher limb to attach it to your M4 rifle’ level.
Don’t mix up these two things.

I’m not mixing anything up, and please don’t quote me out of context or attribute things to me that I haven’t said.

My original post in reply to Yokes’ comment that Phoenix point doesn’t bring new technology from space which we could learn was:

I haven’t said anything about any specific weaponry such as Molotov cocktails, but now you mention it, I do see them as being something that an opposing force might try when facing an oncoming army of armoured sea food, if effective they’d probably then attempt to develop improvements to that device and/or produce it in volume.

Erm… You mix improvised weapons which you linked for :slight_smile: which can be developed with low funding, with advanced weapons which are usually developed during warfare by wealthy governments and military organizations. :slight_smile: First is setting we are on, second is long time gone. Thus should not be possible for Phoenix Point.

I think its fair to expect PP research to be very much geared to offensive & defensive applications.

Granted the learning is not based on alien tech rather it would be analysis/adaptation/inspiration from analysis of faction equipment & monster mutations. But the outcome should be the same: How can we use this to become more effective and safer.

Marginal gains on equipment would be fine; upgrades would be fine; new models and tech would be fine, it could be somewhat randomized or unpredictable but i really think there should be more functional output from the research. New stuff is fun as is the feeling of going up a power curve.

No, I said:

Advancements in technology is not the same as advanced weapons.

I’m aware that written communication can often be misinterpreted, so to be clear - ‘Advancement’ in the context which I used it means ‘a development or improvement.’

Advancements in technology are both possible and likely in a warfare situation, they happen as each side tries to avoid being killed, whilst becoming more effective at killing the other. Advanced weaponry are developed both in and out of warfare by wealthy governments, however this is a different matter.

My primary point is based on cosmetics, in a way. It’s nice to see your soldiers work up from kevlar vests to robotic power super suits, again, as EVERY X-COM style game has ever done in history. In PP, we get a handful of sets that just swap stats around. They’re all, balancing aside, on the same level. There’s no show of progression. Your soldiers eventually cap out in level and stats (albeit late game), but they wear the same armor the entire time. That’s boring. Same with weapons. You either get a rifle that does 100 damage, or does 70 damage an 30 acid damage, or 60 damage and 40 pierce…etc. They all just still to 100 damage total. Boring.

I expect the enemy to advance in tech. Soldiers will have higher HP/armor, better weapons, or just better units all around. I really hope they plan on coming out with more aliens than just the handful we’ve seen so far. Variances aside, Crab men be Crab men. Again, boring. You can argue that previous X-COM games only had like 10 different enemies, but it’s almost 2020 FFS. We have the technology to make a hell of a lot more. Maybe it’s a time constraint? Money? Lack of interest? Regardless, I think it would be rather poor on PP’s part not to innovate here. The whole point being that we’ve seen the basic ground fodder, they should ramp up with bigger and better mutations down the road after figuring out that the current small fry don’t work.

That’s how wars go. You figure out what does and does not work, and you ADVANCE. I should eventually see gear that makes my current gear look bad, stats-wise. Right now I basically have all of my soldiers running around in the same exact combination of gear, what I deem a perfect balance between aim, speed, and survivability. It’s like playing with Clone troopers, everyone’s decked out the same. BORING.

There is also one variable: time.
I have to compare the timeline of my games, but I think that we are talking about ‘months’ not ‘years’. I know that for game purpose we have to simplify that (and we discover new type of craft in two weeks), but going from AR-15 guerilla to mech-warrior with jetpacks and quantum lasers and black hole generator withing a year is also silly

I certainly am with you on the cosmetic side. From gameplay perspective I do see habit of giving players more armor and damage while giving enemies more health and damage to compensate rather pointless. Though I think XCOM2 did something brilliant in first two progression stages, moving big baddies (like snakeman or sectoid) to support role, keeping them relevant, though not a main threat.

Giving players straight up upgrades sounds like something easier to do from design perspective (compared to side upgrades), but it requires unique art. Whenever it is cheaper or not, I do not known.
Indeed, if there is little room to grow game might feel stale, or as if we don’t progress at all.

Single best progression I have seen in an sort-of-XCOM game was Invisible Inc., though they worked in a very small scale campaign. While they have little linear progression, multiple layers of gameplay and variety of items allow for unique runs, granting clear feel of progression, while not making enemies less dangerous.

I don’t expect to see new enemy types, though I do wish that there are more mutations that what we have seen so far. Crabman may be crabman but if interestingly developed they may be interesting. See how many types of advent trooper XCOM2 has, and those could all be crabmen in PP. From little I have seen, I didn’t see anything wild so far, though. Mutations are something that could be added on regular basis as the game is developed, though naturally, I would like to see more on launch.