# Why Food Production Is Useless (and issues with the economy in general)
**URL:** https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/why-food-production-is-useless-and-issues-with-the-economy-in-general/11287
**Category:** Game Feedback
**Created:** [August 21, 2020, 11:03am UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/why-food-production-is-useless-and-issues-with-the-economy-in-general/11287 "2020-08-21T11:03:30Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 2
### Author:  [@MadSkunky](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/MadSkunky)
#### Post date: [August 22, 2020, 7:56am UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/why-food-production-is-useless-and-issues-with-the-economy-in-general/11287/21 "2020-08-22T07:56:46Z")
> [@VOLAND](#):
>
> I don’t like the idea of it being automatic, i.e. a reward for protecting a certain kind of district, or just something tedious you have to do during the mission. It has to be a target of opportunity, you have to be risking something in the battlefield to get the stuff. In that sense the mission should definitely end when the Pandorans are defeated - if you didn’t manage to grab something in the meantime it’s your loss.
I am still not convinced of this idea. That probably just ends with taking 1-2 specialists with you, probably quick assaults who are only there to secure these resources. Or something like that, in the end you ALWAYS get the resources with some special tactic (which can get boring again). Then you can also pay them out automatically if the defense is successful.
I am more of the opinion that there should be something like a weekly or even daily payment / delivery of resources from the factions, extremely depending on how you protect or raid Heavens. That doesn’t have to be a lot and should certainly have a certain saturation so that it doesn’t get too easy, but I still think that’s the better way. Then you will be rewarded if you protect Heavens and punished if you attack them.
Raiding Heavens then can give you research, aircrafts or a big amount of resources at one time but will end in an hard decrease of the delivery from this faction.
---
### Author:  [@noStas](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/noStas)
#### Post date: [August 22, 2020, 12:33pm UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/why-food-production-is-useless-and-issues-with-the-economy-in-general/11287/22 "2020-08-22T12:33:13Z")
> [@MadSkunky](#):
>
> delivery from this faction
Somewhere around here, the Haven leader’s Influence (Diplomacy) dependency should also be enabled.
---
### Author:  [@Yokes](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/Yokes)
#### Post date: [August 22, 2020, 12:42pm UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/why-food-production-is-useless-and-issues-with-the-economy-in-general/11287/23 "2020-08-22T12:42:19Z")
> [@MadSkunky](#):
>
> At release we had crates in heaven defences, not with resources but equipment. They are completely gone. Why? Maybe a lot players didn’t like this looting part?
I think because it was confusing why they are there for:
- they are free stuff we can collect just as gifts
- this is faction stuff possible for us to steal with repercussions (this would be preferable option)
- this is faction stuff possible for us to steal, but no one will mind us doing it (this was the case)
and what you need to do with them:
- do we collect loot automatically without even touching them
- do we need to open them to collect loot automatically (this was the case)
- do we need to take content of the crate with us to get it after mission (in case of stealing stuff from faction this should be preferrable case).
What more at the beginning there was no re-engineering. When it was introduced then item crates on Haven Defences allowed to easy obtainable tech for specific items. And I suppose this was the reason item crates were removed.
> [@VOLAND](#):
>
> I don’t like the idea of it being automatic, i.e. a reward for protecting a certain kind of district, or just something tedious you have to do during the mission. It has to be a target of opportunity, you have to be risking something in the battlefield to get the stuff. In that sense the mission should definitely end when the Pandorans are defeated - if you didn’t manage to grab something in the meantime it’s your loss.
MY WISH:
In my opinion it should be the way as I marked above about preferred case (if you take something you are given an option after the mission:
- return it without repercussions
- if item is not high end tech you can buy it with price dependent on your relation with local leader
- if you don’t want to return it or buy it, then you steal it with heavy reputation loss with local leader and faction
and re-engineering should require a lot more copies (between 5 and 10) of given item to enable starting research. And items should drop a lot from enemies.
> [@MadSkunky](#):
>
> I am still not convinced of this idea.
And what do you think about my above idea? 🙂
> [@MadSkunky](#):
>
> I am more of the opinion that there should be something like a weekly or even daily payment / delivery of resources from the factions, extremely depending on how you protect or raid Heavens. That doesn’t have to be a lot and should certainly have a certain saturation so that it doesn’t get too easy, but I still think that’s the better way. Then you will be rewarded if you protect Heavens and punished if you attack them.
I’m not sure about it… If the amount would be small then you would need to defend same havens many times to have something substantial. And we can agree that would be tedious. If the amount would be high then there would be risk that player thanks to good RNG would be flooded with resources. I like one time reward more as it is currently. Of course reward can go higher with progression of campaign.
> [@Fetchez\_la\_Vache](#):
>
> should Science Labs and Factories actually produce their respective resources… if they aren’t being used for research or equipment production at the time? Gives another income stream.
You mean our facilities or districts in havens?
---
### Author:  [@noStas](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/noStas)
#### Post date: [August 22, 2020, 12:46pm UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/why-food-production-is-useless-and-issues-with-the-economy-in-general/11287/24 "2020-08-22T12:46:31Z")
> [@Yokes](#):
>
> districts in havens?
\*Does Havens have its own / internal separate economics?
---
### Author:  [@Yokes](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/Yokes)
#### Post date: [August 22, 2020, 12:49pm UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/why-food-production-is-useless-and-issues-with-the-economy-in-general/11287/25 "2020-08-22T12:49:43Z")
if haven:
- has factory district then it produces materials and contributes to overall manufacturing speed of faction.
- has a science district then it produces tech and contributes to overall research speed of faction (can also provide science points when raided)
- has food production district it produces food and contributes to fight starvation of the faction (in limited range but still)
---
### Author:  [@noStas](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/noStas)
#### Post date: [August 22, 2020, 1:09pm UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/why-food-production-is-useless-and-issues-with-the-economy-in-general/11287/26 "2020-08-22T13:09:24Z")
> [@MadSkunky](#):
>
> I am more of the opinion that there should be something like a weekly or even daily payment / delivery of resources from the factions, extremely depending on how you protect or raid Heavens. That doesn’t have to be a lot and should certainly have a certain saturation so that it doesn’t get too easy, but I still think that’s the better way. Then you will be rewarded if you protect Heavens and punished if you attack them.
> Raiding Heavens then can give you research, aircrafts or a big amount of resources at one time but will end in an hard decrease of the delivery from this faction.
> [@Fetchez\_la\_Vache](#):
>
> should Science Labs and Factories actually produce their respective resources…
Havens’ independent economy will work well with the system - “Haven as a living / self-sustaining object”
> [@Improve Haven ecosystem to reduce grind of Haven defense missions](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/improve-haven-ecosystem-to-reduce-grind-of-haven-defense-missions/11196/9):
>
> - HP bar
> - points: Attack, Defense, Armor
> (+3% HP, +5 Armor, -3 Def …)
---
### Author:  [@Fetchez\_la\_Vache](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/Fetchez_la_Vache)
#### Post date: [August 22, 2020, 1:12pm UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/why-food-production-is-useless-and-issues-with-the-economy-in-general/11287/27 "2020-08-22T13:12:17Z")
> You mean our facilities or districts in havens?
I was referring to Phoenix base facilities. To me its logical - a science lab is going to conduct research (tech resource) no matter what. It might be harder to explain how a factory can create materials on its own though - maybe salavaging equipment (or vehicles) through a factory will provide more material though?
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### Author:  [@Yokes](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/Yokes)
#### Post date: [August 22, 2020, 1:20pm UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/why-food-production-is-useless-and-issues-with-the-economy-in-general/11287/28 "2020-08-22T13:20:22Z")
I’m not sure I see this. How research lab would create something when being idle?
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### Author:  [@Fetchez\_la\_Vache](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/Fetchez_la_Vache)
#### Post date: [August 22, 2020, 1:29pm UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/why-food-production-is-useless-and-issues-with-the-economy-in-general/11287/29 "2020-08-22T13:29:32Z")
Our own scientists conducting ‘general’ research to create tech resources. Clearly the Havens are doing it already, so why not Phoenix facilities?
Edit: those crazy science-types are able to think about stuff beyond the latest dead Triton on the slab… 😁
---
### Author:  [@PradBitt](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/PradBitt)
#### Post date: [August 22, 2020, 1:30pm UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/why-food-production-is-useless-and-issues-with-the-economy-in-general/11287/30 "2020-08-22T13:30:38Z")
> [@VOLAND](#):
>
> I would say that if you want to get massive amounts of food from capturing Pandas, having to paralyze them in large numbers is a bit tedious, though it’s not without a certain challenge because paralyzing doesn’t yield WP rewards nor panics Pandas, and you want to disable limbs to reduce strength, but you don’t want to kill the targets.
It’s not that hard once you get hang on it. Initially you don’t need to paralyze to the very last point, over the half is enough to render them mostly harmless. Couple that with warcry and camping around corners to lure range pandas in. My last mission, when everyone got paralyzed yielded 900 food.
It’s not fun but it shows that resource income is very unbalanced.
> [@MadSkunky](#):
>
> Also in HDs looting crates seems to me not really practicable. What if the enemies engaging your squad or objectives and you have no other chance then to kill all of them before you can loot something? No more automatic ending, instead you have to evac when you’re done with looting?
No manual evac please. It’s cancer. If you don’t want auto ending, then we should have end mission button, so that we can press it any time and finish.
> [@VOLAND](#):
>
> Phoenix Point is a tiny organization the purpose of which is to end the Pandoravirus threat, not to protect every single Haven on the globe. It’s completely absurd that PX that has a few dozen operatives has that kind of responsibility, when the Factions have hundreds of thousands of members/citizens/adepts.
>
> PX shouldn’t be bearing the brunt of the military effort.
You’re 100% right. What we need is this assumption to be finally enforced by the game. Because right now game behaves like PP is perfectly capable of doing it (as long as player’s willing to withstand the grind).
---
### Author:  [@VOLAND](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/VOLAND)
#### Post date: [August 22, 2020, 2:21pm UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/why-food-production-is-useless-and-issues-with-the-economy-in-general/11287/31 "2020-08-22T14:21:14Z")
I think the first questions that have to be asked and answered when considering how resource procurement should be in the game are:
1. what kind of organization PX is,
2. what role does it have, and
3. how do the other organizations see it.
As to
1. it’s very small and research oriented, it’s not meant to be a supreme military power as it currently is in the game.
2. the purpose of the PX is to preserve humanity, which is different from, and in conflict with, preserving individual human lives. As anyone charged with achieving the Greater Good they have to be weary of falling into the ends justify the means moral trap.
3. The factions must be interested primarily in PX research into the Pandorans and perhaps some specific areas of expertise when dealing with them, as well as appearing associated with an organization that has preserving humanity as its enunciated purpose (and that mostly for political reasons as a self-justification for their own agenda).
It’s therefore not unreasonable that the Factions might want to support PX materially on a regular basis. Thus in the past I suggested that Factions make all of its Havens pay a very small, regular tithe to PX. It would be paid as a lump sum by the Faction at certain intervals (given the game’s current pace, perhaps every week) and the amount would depend on the diplo rating with the Faction and what the Havens are actually producing.
The Havens might see PX differently, because of their capabilities to locate and destroy Pandoran bases. For them the issue shouldn’t be so much that they need PX to defend them from every Pandoran attack (which is stupid, they should be more than capable of defending themselves), but rather that the presence of a nearby Pandoran base is both an existential threat (who knows if one day there will be a determined attack) and something that is taxing their morale and resources (attacks on ground based trade, scavenging operations, etc.).
The Havens would allow PX to intervene in the Haven Defense missions in the understanding that it is necessary to locate the Pandoran bases, but they would only pay PX for actually eliminating a nearby Pandoran base. However, PX could take the opportunity to grab some things and the Haven authorities would look the other way.
---
### Author:  [@MadSkunky](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/MadSkunky)
#### Post date: [August 22, 2020, 5:05pm UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/why-food-production-is-useless-and-issues-with-the-economy-in-general/11287/32 "2020-08-22T17:05:25Z")
> [@Yokes](#):
>
> And what do you think about my above idea?
You talk about looting items, but anyway what we can loot, I’m still not convinced if the idea to merge HDs and raids. These should be independent strategy decisions and so also missions in my book.
But when we go the way to merge them, then a generally I would like a choice like you described.
> [@Yokes](#):
>
> I’m not sure about it… If the amount would be small then you would need to defend same havens many times to have something substantial.
That is what I actually already do almost all the time. But without that much increasing income …
> [@PradBitt](#):
>
> No manual evac please. It’s cancer. If you don’t want auto ending, then we should have end mission button, so that we can press it any time and finish.
I also don’t want to have more evac missions and for sure not in HDs. It was a question because I’m not happy with the idea to merge raids and HDs.
> **Quote of @VOLAND big post above**
>
> > [@VOLAND](#):
> >
> > I think the first questions that have to be asked and answered when considering how resource procurement should be in the game are:
> >
> > 1. what kind of organization PX is,
> > 2. what role does it have, and
> > 3. how do the other organizations see it.
> >
> > As to
> >
> > 1. it’s very small and research oriented, it’s not meant to be a supreme military power as it currently is in the game.
> > 2. the purpose of the PX is to preserve humanity, which is different from, and in conflict with, preserving individual human lives. As anyone charged with achieving the Greater Good they have to be weary of falling into the ends justify the means moral trap.
> > 3. The factions must be interested primarily in PX research into the Pandorans and perhaps some specific areas of expertise when dealing with them, as well as appearing associated with an organization that has preserving humanity as its enunciated purpose (and that mostly for political reasons as a self-justification for their own agenda).
> >
> > It’s therefore not unreasonable that the Factions might want to support PX materially on a regular basis. Thus in the past I suggested that Factions make all of its Havens pay a very small, regular tithe to PX. It would be paid as a lump sum by the Faction at certain intervals (given the game’s current pace, perhaps every week) and the amount would depend on the diplo rating with the Faction and what the Havens are actually producing.
> >
> > The Havens might see PX differently, because of their capabilities to locate and destroy Pandoran bases. For them the issue shouldn’t be so much that they need PX to defend them from every Pandoran attack (which is stupid, they should be more than capable of defending themselves), but rather that the presence of a nearby Pandoran base is both an existential threat (who knows if one day there will be a determined attack) and something that is taxing their morale and resources (attacks on ground based trade, scavenging operations, etc.).
> >
> > The Havens would allow PX to intervene in the Haven Defense missions in the understanding that it is necessary to locate the Pandoran bases, but they would only pay PX for actually eliminating a nearby Pandoran base. However, PX could take the opportunity to grab some things and the Haven authorities would look the other way.
This would be a big change of the actual global strategy and even then I would not merge raids and HDs. It feels not right for me and also I’m not a big fan of running around to loot something.
---
### Author:  [@VOLAND](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/VOLAND)
#### Post date: [August 22, 2020, 5:56pm UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/why-food-production-is-useless-and-issues-with-the-economy-in-general/11287/33 "2020-08-22T17:56:41Z")
> [@MadSkunky](#):
>
> This would be a big change of the actual global strategy
I would say yes and no. What it means in practice is that:
1. You would receive a steady source of income that would increase as the diplo rating improved and decrease as Havens got destroyed.
2. The Havens would be much more effective at defending themselves and recover from attacks quicker - so basically increase the military strength and rate of recovery and/or decrease strength of _most_ Pandoran attacks.
3. You would not receive any resources for defending Havens. However, perhaps you would receive a small reputation increase with Faction and with Haven leader (I’m not sure of this). You would also have the opportunity to loot things, depending on district - resources, or items.
4. Destroying a Pandoran base would yield a large reputation increase with the Faction(s) whose Havens were threatened by it and with the Havens themselves, as well as a hefty payment.
This changes a few things in the current dynamics that just don’t make a lot of sense:
- Currently you get substantial rep bonus and resources for Haven Defense and big rep bonus but no resources for destroying the Pandoran base that generates the Haven Defense, which gives you much better reward. 🤪 So you basically have an incentive not to destroy Pandoran bases to harvest resources and rep from HDs.
- The major encouragement not to do the above grind comes from the fact that there are currently so many HDs anyway that there is no chance of running out of them.
- Of course the number of HDs will be reduced, because it’s insane, but you will still have to do plenty of these missions just because the Havens are unable to fend for themselves. It’s not a strategic choice - it’s a harvesting operation. Think about this: when won’t you go on a HD? Only if you can’t, or when you are sick of doing this chore.
---
### Author:  [@MadSkunky](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/MadSkunky)
#### Post date: [August 22, 2020, 10:27pm UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/why-food-production-is-useless-and-issues-with-the-economy-in-general/11287/34 "2020-08-22T22:27:12Z")
Almost, yeah, I like it 👍
But I’m still not really happy with the looting part, but if we could loot an aircraft … 😁
Edit:
> [@VOLAND](#):
>
> You would also have the opportunity to loot things, depending on district - resources, or items.
An alternative:
You get an offer for some things after a successful HD. Resources, items, research, recruits, maybe really an aircraft and that for special prices dependant on your reputation and of course cheaper as build them by yourself or for resources as trading normal.
---
### Author:  [@VOLAND](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/VOLAND)
#### Post date: [August 23, 2020, 12:36am UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/why-food-production-is-useless-and-issues-with-the-economy-in-general/11287/35 "2020-08-23T00:36:29Z")
The point of the looting is to give the player some reason for wanting to do HD missions so that it’s not a chore, or a job, and the prospect of interesting loot is something that usually triggers player’s interest.
For example, looting in the Scavenging missions and in Lairs and Citadels has this moment you approach a chest and you don’t know what’s in it. Yeah, you know there will be a crate with apples, gears, beakers, or mutagen, but sometimes there is also a weapon there…
I imagine going on a HD mission in NJ to the training facility and just looking for those crates hopping it will be a weapon, or a piece of armor.
Or a research lab where I can get beakers and maybe access a terminal and download some new tech. (Once the tech dump at aligned status is gone - and it will be eventually - something like this will make more sense).
> [@MadSkunky](#):
>
> An alternative:
> You get an offer for some things after a successful HD. Resources, items, research, recruits, maybe really an aircraft and that for special prices
Aircraft probably not… (though there should be a way of acquiring one other than stealing, or building it).
* * *
A different possibility: if the Haven Defense leads to locating the Pandoran base, the Haven helps you mount the expedition to erradicate it, giving you some random resources, items and/or recruits, more of them if it’s a Lair, and even more if it’s a Citadel.
If you don’t find the base, or the base has already been located, you get a very small amount of resources depending on the district (an abstraction meaning stuff your guys managed to grab on their way out).
---
### Author:  [@trihero1](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/trihero1)
#### Post date: [August 23, 2020, 1:32am UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/why-food-production-is-useless-and-issues-with-the-economy-in-general/11287/36 "2020-08-23T01:32:25Z")
Is the necronomicon patch going to address these issues?
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### Author:  [@MadSkunky](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/MadSkunky)
#### Post date: [August 23, 2020, 6:37am UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/why-food-production-is-useless-and-issues-with-the-economy-in-general/11287/37 "2020-08-23T06:37:43Z")
> [@VOLAND](#):
>
> the prospect of interesting loot is something that usually triggers player’s interest.
Not mine, for me it would be … 🥱
In fact, I mostly don’t loot the crates in lairs anymore after I have enough mutagens.
Honestly, in tactical I want to fight not hunting loot. For the scavenging sites or raids it is somewhat OK, looting is the main goal of these missions and here I’m fine with it.
But combining that into HDs, I’m still not convinced. Especially when it will tend to be a routine job that you can achieve in every HD without to many harms. If it is to difficult to loot then it is maybe not worth the risk … 😉
> [@VOLAND](#):
>
> A different possibility: if the Haven Defense leads to locating the Pandoran base, the Haven helps you mount the expedition to erradicate it, giving you some random resources, items and/or recruits, more of them if it’s a Lair, and even more if it’s a Citadel.
>
> If you don’t find the base, or the base has already been located, you get a very small amount of resources depending on the district (an abstraction meaning stuff your guys managed to grab on their way out).
Yep, that is better 👍
---
### Author:  [@walan](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/walan)
#### Post date: [August 23, 2020, 7:20am UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/why-food-production-is-useless-and-issues-with-the-economy-in-general/11287/38 "2020-08-23T07:20:48Z")
> [@MadSkunky](#):
>
> Not mine, for me it would be … 🥱
Totally agree.
In a turn base game, Looting should get a dynamic dimension, otherwise the already slow TBS will turn into a very slow and boring act. In my playstyle (8-man team) it is e.g. with scavanging missions like that. Turn by turn everyone has to run to the chest without any danger, if full swap with a team member and so on, that’s the part of the game that I somehow have to “get over with”. Ending the looting by killing the last enemy does not help here either, since otherwise the last one would be kept alive artificially.
**Looting should have a thrill!** XCOM 2 has proven this with removed boxes.
At PP the boxes could e.g. burn (every turn less content), are dragged into the deep / ocean (disappears with full content) or the mission has a timer. So something in that direction.
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### Author:  [@Fetchez\_la\_Vache](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/Fetchez_la_Vache)
#### Post date: [August 23, 2020, 8:28am UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/why-food-production-is-useless-and-issues-with-the-economy-in-general/11287/39 "2020-08-23T08:28:14Z")
> [@walan](#):
>
> **Looting should have a thrill!** XCOM 2 has proven this with removed boxes.
> At PP the boxes could e.g. burn (every turn less content), are dragged into the deep / ocean (disappears with full content) or the mission has a timer. So something in that direction.
Okay, I agreed with your view about “Quick Aim” on Canny but I’m afraid I’m going to have to take the opposite view on this one. 😁
I actually dislike it when I am forced to make a mad sprint for objectives and don’t like the soldier-rescue missions in PP because of that. _Hated_ the dynamic in XCOM. I’m a “scoot from bush to bush” sort of chap… or more correctly I like to choose how I approach a mission. This really stems from the fact I play on a self-enforced “Ironman” mode so losing a soldier is irreversible. 😵
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### Author:  [@walan](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/walan)
#### Post date: [August 23, 2020, 9:38am UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/why-food-production-is-useless-and-issues-with-the-economy-in-general/11287/40 "2020-08-23T09:38:23Z")
> [@Fetchez\_la\_Vache](#):
>
> I play on a self-enforced “Ironman” mode
I do it too 😉
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