I had previously suggested that they offer us a system that directs our line of sight for overwatch opportunities. If the enemy and our soldiers were both using a firing arc (say 70 degrees, maybe skill or weapon dependent?), it would limit everyone’s firing opportunities.
Do we know if the fog of war is in effect yet? This at least limits distance for reaction fire to more reasonable targets/shooters.
We still can see and shoot through whole map. Perception is not yet implemented
I forgot about that entirely! In that case, I could see perception being just the thing to make this work right.
I’m imagining that a soldier with good perception would choose when the best time to return fire would be (high % shot) vs the non perceptive soldier who might make worse on the fly decisions.
That said, does return fire make sense as something to replace overwatch, as it was in the original xcom? (that tended to trigger based on units that move into the LOS) Perhaps the gun fire would draw more attention from the soldiers than would the thing while it’s actually lumbering towards you?
Not trying to jump the gun with further assumptions, but I’m not entirely sure about the thematic logic behind it.
Perception isn’t about % to shot, but more about LOS. Units with more perception will be able to see, and therefore shoot, at larger distances. This will fix a lot of the problems return fire currently has.
The idea behind return fire is that you won’t just walk in front of 5 guys, take a shot, and the hide. It makes you think more about your positioning when you are going to attack an enemy.
For what its worth I think the return fire on crabman is fine. It makes them a challenge. It requires me to position a certain way before taking an action, I like it a lot. I don’t even mind the infinite ammo on them because their limbs come right off.
I’ll play around with it a bit more to see if it clicks for me. That logic is reasonable, but I feel like there’s something more to it. I’ll post back when future builds roll around.
I have to agree with Onji on this one.
My first few battles I was firing from out in the open and the return fire was murdering my soldiers non stop. I was thinking WTF this return fire!?!?!
Now I have worked out to get in good cover first! Some times when the aliens have the high ground or in city battles, it is actually better not to fire, but to go into over watch. Let them wear the return fire instead.
Now it is actually kind’ve refreshing playing a game with no fog of war. Not having shots come out of nowhere, killing a solider, from a flank you couldn’t see. It actually works pretty well. Even though you can see enemies from a distance, the chance of hitting one, is still very low. You need to work your way to them to get a kill shot.
I feel there’s both pros and cons to the return fire. On the one hand, I feel like it forces me to position my actively shooting troops more carefully and try and constrain the number of enemy firing arcs each of these soldiers is in. On the other hand, it also promotes some boring tactics (for example, positioning assaults where they are in multiple enemy firing arcs and just tabbing past them so they will return fire on all enemies). So I’m reserving judgment: let’s see what they make of this system.
Not really interesting tactic. Return fire is weak compared to all other skills which you can use. So tabbing past Assault is a waste. And Return Fire will be further weakened if number of uses will be limited or the cone of fire will limit how many enemies it can cover. It is just for support purpose. Assault in this way can help to eliminate camping enemies.
I totally agree, tabbing past my assaults is a boring tactic, hence my describing it as a con. It doesn’t work well with melee crabs (since they’ll get right up on you before your assaults shoot) but I find for ranged ones if I put the assaults in full cover where they are in a lot of firing arcs, they gradually wear down the shooters, making them easy pickings for more decisive snipers later.
My thought is that the effectiveness of positioning the assaults thus reduces the number of interesting choices I have to make in a turn, and usually that’s a metric game designers are on the lookout for.
I totally agree. Once I worked out some times it was better to be in full cover, with all troops on overwatch, it made the city maps easier. Alien runs around the corner and only gets to take one last step. Or move to a defendable corner and let the enemy come to you. Very defensive play and if I dare say it a little boring.
If anyone has the same problem, I VERY highly recommend finding a couple firecat launchers. Arm your squad and go on an aggressive attack each map. Great fun and when you get too complacent you can find yourself in some very challenging places to get out of!
I think the return fire is a great addition to the game. If you poke your head up to shoot you should run a risk. I’ve found I have to play much differently than in XCom. Healing technicians are much more important now. You know your front dudes will take damage. Plan to heal them before it’s too late. This one addition has made the game so much more dynamic. Plus, it’s not like you take a ton of damage. The thing is only getting off 3 rounds or so at you. Now, a tech. firing 4 times in a row… 
Please…don’t remove this or water it down. It adds so much more dynamic to the game.
I like the function of return fire. The issue is that LOS atm is infinite. So guys who reasonably should neither be firing at you, nor being shot at, both shoot regardless. The range on Return Fire should probably not be more than 20ish squares of movement, whereas right now so long as Line Of Sight exists, they pull the trigger. I don’t want Return Fire gone, I just want a few more logic rules placed on it.
Short answer is that it’s coming. The Devs have been talking about it for months. So far it is merely a system that has not been implemented yet. Use of tactics in the current build will negate the worst of return fire, for sure.
At the end of the day, I don’t think that a little defensive planning could hurt anyone while facing extermination at the hands of an unknown enemy.
Most of the comments in this thread seem to have missed the fact that Julian Gollup, the designer himself, said in the third post on this topic:
Give him time, people. It’s a complex build, and he’s trying to give us something we have never seen or had to deal with before. This is only a pre-alpha, with limited features, designed to get the basics working.
Trust that the man who gave us X-Com in all it’s wonderfully complex glory knows what he’s doing and will make it work in the end.
Which is not to say that we shouldn’t point out features that are or aren’t working, since that’s precisely what these forums are for. It’s just that half the posts in this thread simply seemed to blithely ignore the fact that the DESIGNER himself said: “I know, give us time to make it work.”
It was stealthed 