# Terminator builds again **URL:** \ **Category:** Game Feedback\ **Created:** [July 31, 2020, 9:31am UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/terminator-builds-again/11090 "2020-07-31T09:31:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![PradBitt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/71c47a/32.png) [@PradBitt](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/PradBitt)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2020, 9:31am UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/terminator-builds-again/11090/1 "2020-07-31T09:31:07Z")
Wasnt Cuthulu supposed to be the end of so called terminator builds? If so, then for instance, what stops wounded, frenzied berserker from popping RC+AR and clearing whole map in one turn? ---
**Author:** ![VOLAND](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/c6cbf5/32.png) [@VOLAND](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/VOLAND)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2020, 10:39am UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/terminator-builds-again/11090/2 "2020-07-31T10:39:11Z")
> [@PradBitt](#): > > If so, then for instance, what stops wounded, frenzied berserker from popping RC+AR and clearing whole map in one turn? Nothing… Although not enough enemies to keep the chain going, or finding them all on a night mission can be a problem 😉 To be fair this is a step in the right direction, and the idea was that all the other changes put together would somehow prevent TBs from happening. The effort fell short, but the intention to remove TBs is still there. However, there is a lot of concern with nerfing too much and making changes that make game systems harder to understand, particularly for new players. See here [Phoenix Point v. Cthulhu 1.6 - 30th of July - #108 by VOLAND](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/phoenix-point-v-cthulhu-1-6-30th-of-july/11036/108) ---
**Author:** ![etermes](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex036/user_avatar/forums.snapshotgames.com/etermes/32/4315_2.png) [@etermes](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/etermes)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2020, 11:10am UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/terminator-builds-again/11090/3 "2020-07-31T11:10:52Z")
> [@VOLAND](#): > > The effort fell short, but the intention to remove TBs is still there. still an on going process? maybe someday AR will be removed? > [@VOLAND](#): > > However, there is a lot of concern with nerfing too much and making changes that make game systems harder to understand, particularly for new players. do you know what specific changes? ---
**Author:** ![Architectus](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex036/user_avatar/forums.snapshotgames.com/architectus/32/3147_2.png) [@Architectus](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/Architectus)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2020, 12:00pm UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/terminator-builds-again/11090/4 "2020-07-31T12:00:06Z")
Adrenaline Rush was changed in the 1.6 Cthulhu patch so that it causes the Berserker to become dazed next turn after use, but the potential to create Assault/Berserker Terminator Builds is definitely still there. Rapid Clearance still has not been changed and lacks a hard limit to the number of action points that can be accumulated in one turn. A level 7 Assault/Berserker with Strongman and Reckless traits armed with a Deceptor MG and buffed with a Priest Judgement head frenzy will still kill so many enemies in a continuous chain all over the map in a single turn that it pretty much won’t matter if the Assault/Berserker is dazed next turn, if it hardly has anyone or anything left to kill anyway. ---
**Author:** ![VOLAND](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/c6cbf5/32.png) [@VOLAND](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/VOLAND)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2020, 12:19pm UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/terminator-builds-again/11090/5 "2020-07-31T12:19:44Z")
> [@etermes](#): > > still an on going process? Yes, definitely. That’s why discussion is important, because we can come up with suggestions to the devs and because it keeps awareness of the issue. Paradoxically, as most players who discover TBs start playing with self restrictions to avoid them, they don’t appear as a major issue in the stats. > [@etermes](#): > > do you know what specific changes? What I mean is that when making suggestions to the devs we have to consider that 1) they don’t want to nerf the game to the point where it is not fun (for example, RC giving back only 1AP), and 2) they want the rules to be easily understood by all players (so something like RC only gives back APs spent on the kill is confusing). ---
**Author:** ![omenomaho](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/6bbea6/32.png) [@omenomaho](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/omenomaho)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2020, 12:38pm UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/terminator-builds-again/11090/6 "2020-07-31T12:38:02Z")
> [@VOLAND](#): > > so something like RC only gives back APs spent on the kill is confusing) Is it ? This would pretty much amount to “spend no AP for killing enemies”. Quite straight forward. Hm you can’t communicate it like that though, because you still need the AP to take the shot. Still I think it isn’t confusing at all. Just have to come up with nice wording 😉 How about RC lasts until you move ? ---
**Author:** ![VOLAND](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/c6cbf5/32.png) [@VOLAND](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/VOLAND)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2020, 12:43pm UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/terminator-builds-again/11090/7 "2020-07-31T12:43:57Z")
> [@omenomaho](#): > > Just have to come up with nice wording 😉 Please do! 😉 But bear in mind that many players don’t bother reading descriptions carefully so it has to be _really_ obvious. ---
**Author:** ![omenomaho](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/6bbea6/32.png) [@omenomaho](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/omenomaho)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2020, 12:44pm UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/terminator-builds-again/11090/8 "2020-07-31T12:44:55Z")
I mean it really is not that difficult. You said it yourself: > [@VOLAND](#): > > RC only gives back APs spent on the kill It’s not exactly a wall of text, and pretty much everyone understands it. ---
**Author:** ![VOLAND](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/c6cbf5/32.png) [@VOLAND](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/VOLAND)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2020, 12:47pm UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/terminator-builds-again/11090/9 "2020-07-31T12:47:35Z")
I use 1AP to move to an Arthon and 2APs to hit him with a Hammer. I spent 3 APs on killing the target. Why do I only get back 2??!! (so game completely broken, bugs everywhere, unplayable etc etc 😂) ---
**Author:** ![omenomaho](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/6bbea6/32.png) [@omenomaho](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/omenomaho)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2020, 12:49pm UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/terminator-builds-again/11090/10 "2020-07-31T12:49:07Z")
Come on … that’s grasping straws at this point 😉 You could say spend on the killing _blow_ instead. I mean … it is a fairly complex game regardless. People that don’t read things or try to understand mechanics might not be the target audience here anyways. ---
**Author:** ![VOLAND](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/c6cbf5/32.png) [@VOLAND](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/VOLAND)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2020, 12:52pm UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/terminator-builds-again/11090/11 "2020-07-31T12:52:07Z")
Yes, tbh I’m playing the Devil’s advocate here. I’m just relaying why there is some reluctance to that approach. Doesn’t mean it has been discarded. > [@omenomaho](#): > > People that don’t read things or try to understand mechanics might not be the target audience here anyways. Nah, they definitely _also_ are… ---
**Author:** ![omenomaho](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/6bbea6/32.png) [@omenomaho](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/omenomaho)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2020, 12:53pm UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/terminator-builds-again/11090/12 "2020-07-31T12:53:53Z")
> [@VOLAND](#): > > Nah, they definitely _also_ are… To an extend. It is more accessible than our beloved DOS gaming suite. It still requires you to use one or two brain cells every now and then 😉 but this: > [@omenomaho](#): > > How about RC lasts until you move ? Really simple rule. The ability would still be quite powerful. You can move in, burn RC and kill 2 3 X enemies in LOS/close enough, then make another move cancelling RC and finish with one more kill. ---
**Author:** ![VOLAND](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/c6cbf5/32.png) [@VOLAND](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/VOLAND)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2020, 1:05pm UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/terminator-builds-again/11090/13 "2020-07-31T13:05:59Z")
> [@omenomaho](#): > > but this: > > > [@omenomaho](#): > > > > How about RC lasts until you move ? > > Really simple rule. The ability would still be quite powerful. You can move in, burn RC and kill 2 3 X enemies in LOS/close enough, then make another move cancelling RC and finish with one more kill. Yeah, I like it too. It does prejudice melee weapons, but, on the other hand, with that melee bionic torso it’s not such a bad thing… (btw, I’m so fed up with bionics that I switched off the DLC for my current playthrough…) Let me put the issue of RC another way - of the proposed solutions, which one wouldn’t work? I mean, can we say something like “do any of the following, we don’t care which?” ---
**Author:** ![omenomaho](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/6bbea6/32.png) [@omenomaho](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/omenomaho)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2020, 1:10pm UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/terminator-builds-again/11090/14 "2020-07-31T13:10:08Z")
Seems there is a number of good solutions flying around. There is also the idea of diminishing returns which can take many forms. And also this popping up just now in another thread: > [@Phoenix Point v. Cthulhu 1.6 - 30th of July](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/phoenix-point-v-cthulhu-1-6-30th-of-july/11036/115): > > Oh dear…it has been 7 months. Just make it: > > Rapid Clearance (5WP, 1-2AP cost): The action cost of proficient weapons use is reduced by 1(can not be 0). Gain 1 action point when killing enemy. Lasts for one turn > > Simple to understand. It synergises better with Onslaught, but cant be abused in an indefinite loop How do you chose the best solution without taking up incredible amounts of dev time for test builds 😉 ---
**Author:** ![etermes](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex036/user_avatar/forums.snapshotgames.com/etermes/32/4315_2.png) [@etermes](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/etermes)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2020, 1:19pm UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/terminator-builds-again/11090/15 "2020-07-31T13:19:52Z")
> [@VOLAND](#): > > (btw, I’m so fed up with bionics that I switched off the DLC for my current playthrough…) What happened with bionics? ---
**Author:** ![VOLAND](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/c6cbf5/32.png) [@VOLAND](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/VOLAND)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2020, 1:52pm UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/terminator-builds-again/11090/16 "2020-07-31T13:52:52Z")
Nothing in Cthulhu, I’m just tired of how powerful they are. Like, why use the Tech torso armor when you have the exoskeleton bionic? ---
**Author:** ![omenomaho](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/6bbea6/32.png) [@omenomaho](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/omenomaho)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2020, 1:54pm UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/terminator-builds-again/11090/17 "2020-07-31T13:54:14Z")
I never found a use for the tech torso even before bionics. Fraggers can be removed with a simple punch and medkits are omnipresent. ---
**Author:** ![etermes](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex036/user_avatar/forums.snapshotgames.com/etermes/32/4315_2.png) [@etermes](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/etermes)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2020, 1:54pm UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/terminator-builds-again/11090/18 "2020-07-31T13:54:59Z")
> [@VOLAND](#): > > Nothing in Cthulhu, I’m just tired of how powerful they are. Like, why use the Tech torso armor when you have the exoskeleton bionic? do you mean Neural Torso? I see [http://phoenix.server317.com/Bionics](http://phoenix.server317.com/Bionics) ---
**Author:** ![VOLAND](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/c6cbf5/32.png) [@VOLAND](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/VOLAND)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2020, 1:59pm UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/terminator-builds-again/11090/19 "2020-07-31T13:59:33Z")
Also true, though limb restoration can be quite handy. But basically all the bionics are just better counterparts of the various armor pieces they can replace. And because manufacturing armor takes time while augmentations are instantaneous they are just an optimal solution. ---
**Author:** ![walan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@walan](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/walan)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2020, 2:17pm UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/terminator-builds-again/11090/20 "2020-07-31T14:17:50Z")
Like I said before … DLC 1 feels like pay to win 🙅‍♂️ [Next page](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/terminator-builds-again/11090.md?page=2)