# Save scumming. What is it? **URL:** \ **Category:** Phoenix Point\ **Created:** [February 28, 2020, 7:57pm UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/save-scumming-what-is-it/9583 "2020-02-28T19:57:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Spagetman43](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex036/user_avatar/forums.snapshotgames.com/spagetman43/32/1579_2.png) [@Spagetman43](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/Spagetman43)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2020, 5:40pm UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/save-scumming-what-is-it/9583/42 "2020-03-02T17:40:22Z")
> [@UnstableVoltage](#): > > You can’t just “reload” This is exactly why you can not use this as an example! In this game you CAN reload and save the game so it is entirely different! In this game you can reload and save as much as you like so for that very reason you can’t compare this to that! Basically you should be allowed to do as you please and play the way you want that was my point, not be forced into an corner! ---
**Author:** ![VOLAND](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/c6cbf5/32.png) [@VOLAND](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/VOLAND)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2020, 5:44pm UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/save-scumming-what-is-it/9583/43 "2020-03-02T17:44:46Z")
> [@UnstableVoltage](#): > > Towards the end, even though the enemies may be more difficult and greater in number with more frequent attacks, the player has a bigger squad with better skills/stats and weapons/equipment on par with the enemy. This often leads to the late game just becoming a cakewalk. This is what we were trying to avoid with the dynamic difficulty. We will get it right, though. I really hope so and I wish you all the best in this endeavor. However, based on my experience of the game so far, more of the same enemies with more armor and HPs doesn’t do this. EDIT: just saw this in the upcoming patch notes: - Tritons will be able to use Priest weapons (Viral Weapons). - New acid mortar Chiron body part. - New normal/elite acid grenade launcher bodypart for Arthrons. - New normal/elite viral machine gun launcher bodypart for Arthrons. Sounds great. Hope many more coming! ---
**Author:** ![UnstableVoltage](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex036/user_avatar/forums.snapshotgames.com/unstablevoltage/32/5_2.png) [@UnstableVoltage](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/UnstableVoltage)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2020, 7:22pm UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/save-scumming-what-is-it/9583/44 "2020-03-02T19:22:59Z")
An extra thing here (which isn’t mentioned because it’s more a part of the DLC), but Acid does extra damage to bionic parts. ---
**Author:** ![Ementrude](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex036/user_avatar/forums.snapshotgames.com/ementrude/32/3037_2.png) [@Ementrude](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/Ementrude)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2020, 7:31pm UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/save-scumming-what-is-it/9583/45 "2020-03-02T19:31:43Z")
> [@VOLAND](#): > > EDIT: just saw this in the upcoming patch notes: > > - Tritons will be able to use Priest weapons (Viral Weapons). > - New acid mortar Chiron body part. > - New normal/elite acid grenade launcher bodypart for Arthrons. > - New normal/elite viral machine gun launcher bodypart for Arthrons. > > Sounds great. Hope many more coming! Great huh? I’m super excited. Our enforced patience is slowly pay off. ---
**Author:** ![SpiteAndMalice](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex036/user_avatar/forums.snapshotgames.com/spiteandmalice/32/39_2.png) [@SpiteAndMalice](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/SpiteAndMalice)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2020, 7:58pm UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/save-scumming-what-is-it/9583/46 "2020-03-02T19:58:57Z")
> [@Ementrude](#): > > Chess doesn’t take that long! That all depends on who you’re playing it against 😉 ---
**Author:** ![SpiteAndMalice](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex036/user_avatar/forums.snapshotgames.com/spiteandmalice/32/39_2.png) [@SpiteAndMalice](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/SpiteAndMalice)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2020, 8:11pm UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/save-scumming-what-is-it/9583/47 "2020-03-02T20:11:34Z")
> [@UnstableVoltage](#): > > You can’t just “reload” or ask to take your previous move back to “work out your tactics”. > [@Spagetman43](#): > > This is exactly why you can not use this as an example! In this game you CAN reload and save the game so it is entirely different! In this game you can reload and save as much as you like so for that very reason you can’t compare this to that! You can if you’re playing a computer version of chess in some cases, and then if you win the match and your Elo rating rises as a result the computer can potentially match you up against a smarter AI for the next match. Which would be its own version of DDA. > [@Spagetman43](#): > > Basically you should be allowed to do as you please and play the way you want that was my point, not be forced into an corner! You can play as you please in the sense that the game doesn’t prevent you from save scumming. However, as we’re all aware, doing so will bring consequences if you then score a perfect victory. To me that’s just the same as being able to ally with or make an enemy out of any of the factions, you can play those relationships however you wish, but again there will be consequences. ---
**Author:** ![VOLAND](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/c6cbf5/32.png) [@VOLAND](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/VOLAND)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2020, 8:14pm UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/save-scumming-what-is-it/9583/48 "2020-03-02T20:14:52Z")
> [@SpiteAndMalice](#): > > but again there will be consequences. Indeed, all this saving and reloading in games is making the AIs really upset. I’m sure it plays a role in Skynet’s origin story… ---
**Author:** ![SpiteAndMalice](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex036/user_avatar/forums.snapshotgames.com/spiteandmalice/32/39_2.png) [@SpiteAndMalice](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/SpiteAndMalice)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2020, 8:21pm UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/save-scumming-what-is-it/9583/49 "2020-03-02T20:21:54Z")
I think I were save scumming the way I played, then the way I would treat things would be to say that I’m achieving a perfect victory through the act of save scumming, and that the game allows for it, however it’s going to then make the feat of save scumming to a perfect victory in the next match a bit more difficult, and the same again each time I manage those perfect victories… to which come to think of it, PP might have created a new type of game mode. - Save scum masochism, if you thought that completing a game on iron man mode was a feat in itself, play PP and try to Save scum perfection your way to completion of the game. You could call it I don’t know, nicklerman mode or something. ---
**Author:** ![Spagetman43](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex036/user_avatar/forums.snapshotgames.com/spagetman43/32/1579_2.png) [@Spagetman43](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/Spagetman43)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2020, 8:12am UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/save-scumming-what-is-it/9583/50 "2020-03-03T08:12:55Z")
The main problem I face right now (only 20% in) is that the AI takes several minutes to think for every single move it makes, so 2 hours a round is now not unusual! Add the lag on for the choppy maps and it is basically unplayable… I am starting to hate this game and I have not even got all my DLC yet! XCOM got it right on all levels, if anything good has come from this is that I have stopped playing this and started to play through XCOM again and loving it! ---
**Author:** ![Nattfarinn](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex036/user_avatar/forums.snapshotgames.com/nattfarinn/32/2600_2.png) [@Nattfarinn](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/Nattfarinn)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2020, 8:29am UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/save-scumming-what-is-it/9583/51 "2020-03-03T08:29:20Z")
> [@UnstableVoltage](#): > > You move your rook, then your opponent takes it with their knight. You can’t just “reload” or ask to take your previous move back to “work out your tactics”. The idea is that you plan and make a move, and have to live with the outcome for better or worse. Actually, you can. It’s an agreement between two players and working out tactics against much smarter opponent plays a huge role in learning the game. Don’t tell how brother should play chess with younger brother. 😛 I’ve been the younger brother years ago and I still play chess. Most probably I wouldn’t, if he beat me every match, as that’s the case of table football I still hate. Here, real life example and perfect analogy. 😛 It’s still cheating, but serves the learning process well. Back on topic, I don’t buy it. Comparison to previous titles isn’t fair as you ignore all the successful mods that made these, and other, games constatly difficult (yet fair) till very end. How I see it, is that in PP invasion progression is very, very basic. In previous titles, as the game progress, it throws bigger and badder things at you. Small scouts turns medium and large, terror and battleships are more often, their crew is upgraded as well. In PP DDA tries to fill the role of progression and just tries to make you feel like enemy is doing something to stop you because there’s nothing else enemy can do. Enemies are mostly the same since early-mid game, there is hardly anything new as the game progress. No real enemy progression means no need for technological advancement (and hence the lack of such in the game) over the course of campaign to overcome new obstacles. It would be great to have an option to turn off DDA but I’m afraid it’s not going to happen, as there’s just no content to fill the gap. > [@The game feels better on hardest difficulty](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/the-game-feels-better-on-hardest-difficulty/9580/22): > > Basically, every mission spits out a predicted amount of damage that the player is probable to take across the mission (I don’t have the exact details how this is calculated, but it’s based on a number of factors including enemy strength and composition). > > So say you go on a mission where you’re expected to lose around 20% of your HP on a mission. That could be 20% each from 5 soldiers, or it could be 1 dead soldier from a group of 5. It’s looking at an average number. This, being the core of game progression is so… disappointing. ---
**Author:** ![SpiteAndMalice](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex036/user_avatar/forums.snapshotgames.com/spiteandmalice/32/39_2.png) [@SpiteAndMalice](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/SpiteAndMalice)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2020, 8:13pm UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/save-scumming-what-is-it/9583/52 "2020-03-03T20:13:09Z")
> [@Nattfarinn](#): > > It would be great to have an option to turn off DDA but I’m afraid it’s not going to happen, as there’s just no content to fill the gap. I think that possibly the problem with having an option to turn off DDA is that the devs then have two entirely different game modes to balance… and they’re having a tough enough time already with trying to balance just one. ---
**Author:** ![Vipre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/838e76/32.png) [@Vipre](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/Vipre)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2020, 3:31am UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/save-scumming-what-is-it/9583/53 "2020-03-04T03:31:09Z")
> [@SpiteAndMalice](#): > > I think that possibly the problem with having an option to turn off DDA is that the devs then have two entirely different game modes to balance… Why not simply a disclaimer. “PP is balanced around the dynamic increase/decrease of Pandoran force power. Deactivating this feature may result in a lack of challenge late game.” Right next to “Excessive reloading to avoid unwanted outcomes may result in a much more difficult late game experience.” Then having been duly warned let the player decide. ---
**Author:** ![Nattfarinn](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex036/user_avatar/forums.snapshotgames.com/nattfarinn/32/2600_2.png) [@Nattfarinn](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/Nattfarinn)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2020, 7:46am UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/save-scumming-what-is-it/9583/54 "2020-03-04T07:46:17Z")
> [@SpiteAndMalice](#): > > I think that possibly the problem with having an option to turn off DDA is that the devs then have two entirely different game modes to balance… and they’re having a tough enough time already with trying to balance just one. Most probably it would lead to that. My main issue with DDA is, that it isn’t the additional difficulty layer above base game difficulty and progression, that you may turn off or on. DDA _is_ the base difficulty layer and there is nothing else to compensate the lack of it. The base game progression would require redesign, most probably with the lore and quest system changes to reflect incremental invasion. ---
**Author:** ![VOLAND](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/c6cbf5/32.png) [@VOLAND](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/VOLAND)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2020, 8:07am UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/save-scumming-what-is-it/9583/55 "2020-03-04T08:07:27Z")
> [@Nattfarinn](#): > > My main issue with DDA is, that it isn’t the additional difficulty layer above base game difficulty and progression, that you may turn off or on. DDA _is_ the base difficulty layer and there is nothing else to compensate the lack of it. DDA is, in fact, an additional difficulty layer on top of the regular Pandoran evolution (new & stronger Panda types appearing over time). See for example the notes to the patch that comes out today: “Evolution System The evolution system progression was advancing too rapidly from tactical battles and less from with time - we are changing this to be weighted more towards the time component making the whole progression a bit smoother. We are adding a difficulty component to evolution progression effectively slowing down Pandoran evolution (encountering elite units) for easier difficulties.” I recall that there was also a mod that switches off DDA on rookie. ---
**Author:** ![Nattfarinn](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex036/user_avatar/forums.snapshotgames.com/nattfarinn/32/2600_2.png) [@Nattfarinn](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/Nattfarinn)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2020, 8:32am UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/save-scumming-what-is-it/9583/56 "2020-03-04T08:32:59Z")
> [@VOLAND](#): > > DDA is, in fact, an additional difficulty layer on top of the regular Pandoran evolution (new & stronger Panda types appearing over time) The problem is, game throws everything it has at you too soon, so like I’ve said, since late-early ~ early-mid there’s hardly anything new and the new mutations make no noticeable difficulty or progression difference. You shoot it anyway with whatever you have, and it’s DDA role to make it challenging. So I wouldn’t say there’s a base difficulty layer, as it doesn’t contribute much to challenge. Just variety. Edit: If I recall correctly, last game it was 4th or 5th mission till I’ve seen all base Panda types (w/o Scylla). So since then till the credits it’s fighting against DDA, not against Pandas invasion. ---
**Author:** ![BoredEngineer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/c37758/32.png) [@BoredEngineer](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/BoredEngineer)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2020, 10:41am UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/save-scumming-what-is-it/9583/57 "2020-03-04T10:41:56Z")
The fun part is that we would have zero details about DDA if one moder wouldn’t dig up those details from code and shared with community… With the way how DDA works there is no reference of difficulty between two legendary campaigns played by different players, if one loads only when loosing soldier, another when receiving heavy injuries and another only when map gen glitches. On top of that it can be cheesed by intentionally loosing battles or sacrificing some rookies. Another divergence is the spawn point pool itself which constantly changes on the basis of al of the above. Imho, the game difficulty should depend on your strategic decision and strategic progression not on the outcome of the last material cache missions or ambushes. ---
**Author:** ![BoredEngineer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/c37758/32.png) [@BoredEngineer](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/BoredEngineer)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2020, 10:44am UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/save-scumming-what-is-it/9583/58 "2020-03-04T10:44:08Z")
To be honest DDA sound like something you would enable as mod not as a base game mechanics. ---
**Author:** ![VOLAND](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/c6cbf5/32.png) [@VOLAND](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/VOLAND)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2020, 12:01pm UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/save-scumming-what-is-it/9583/59 "2020-03-04T12:01:35Z")
I’m not a big fan of DDA, particularly as a substitute for reactively evolving enemies, but it is independent of the base difficulty level, which is timed based. > [@Nattfarinn](#): > > since late-early ~ early-mid there’s hardly anything new and the new mutations make no noticeable difficulty or progression difference. You shoot it anyway with whatever you have, and it’s DDA role to make it challenging No, the regular evolution is not only about new enemy types appearing but also the same types with more HPs, armor and weapons. In other words, DDA doesn’t _set_ the difficulty, it _adjusts_ it, also downwards. By way of example, if unadjusted you would be facing 3 crabs with 300+ HPs and 30 average armor, adjusted upwards you might be facing 4, or adjusted downwards 2. Or it can also be that you will face 3 crabs with higher/lower armor or HPs. Put simply, it’s not the DDA that makes the armor or HP grow - they grow just because of time (number of missions + time in the geoscape). What the DDA does is adjust the growth upwards or downwards. So there is no problem in turning it off. ---
**Author:** ![Degrace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/58f4c7/32.png) [@Degrace](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/Degrace)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2020, 2:55pm UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/save-scumming-what-is-it/9583/60 "2020-03-04T14:55:16Z")
It feel that to make the DDA to work they should only permit save on the overworld and not in the tactic battle. If you want to correct a mistake, redo the whole fight to improve your skill. That is what am doing to learn and get better at the game. ---
**Author:** ![Nattfarinn](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex036/user_avatar/forums.snapshotgames.com/nattfarinn/32/2600_2.png) [@Nattfarinn](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/Nattfarinn)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2020, 4:00pm UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/save-scumming-what-is-it/9583/61 "2020-03-04T16:00:53Z")
That would mean no save and quit to resume later. Good luck with final mission. Not sure why we’re discussing how to prevent save scumming. This is single player game. Some will abuse save and load if that way of playing give them more fun, but who cares? I don’t judge anyone, let them play as they like and even make their life easier instead of harder. [Previous page](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/save-scumming-what-is-it/9583.md?page=2) [Next page](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/save-scumming-what-is-it/9583.md?page=4)