# Phoenix Point declining player-base **URL:** \ **Category:** Game Feedback\ **Created:** [May 16, 2021, 9:21am UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/phoenix-point-declining-player-base/13234 "2021-05-16T09:21:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 20
**Author:** ![drages](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex036/user_avatar/forums.snapshotgames.com/drages/32/3432_2.png) [@drages](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/drages)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2021, 8:38pm UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/phoenix-point-declining-player-base/13234/384 "2021-06-06T20:38:05Z")
I just added @oSiyeza to my ignore list some days ago and now I don’t need to bother with him anymore. I advise that too if you are tired to answer to him. People can do the same to me too. ---
**Author:** ![oSiyeza](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex036/user_avatar/forums.snapshotgames.com/osiyeza/32/3610_2.png) [@oSiyeza](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/oSiyeza)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2021, 8:39pm UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/phoenix-point-declining-player-base/13234/385 "2021-06-06T20:39:31Z")
> [@rasvoja](#): > > It’s not a matter of politeness but consumer right. And Devs have been very rude to us all by ignoring major bugs to milk more money on DLCs I mean as a consummer you have some rights. And probably should have more. But the rights you think you have, you actually dont in this case. You are relying on the good faith of the people you purchased the product from to give you a refund. Because they have no actual reason to do it. Being polite will not harm you. ---
**Author:** ![Nattfarinn](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex036/user_avatar/forums.snapshotgames.com/nattfarinn/32/2600_2.png) [@Nattfarinn](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/Nattfarinn)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2021, 8:40pm UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/phoenix-point-declining-player-base/13234/386 "2021-06-06T20:40:20Z")
> [@oSiyeza](#): > > Im sorry, if you publicly accuse the devs of scaming the players, you can expect to be called out. And devs have the right to do so. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![stewpidbear](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex036/user_avatar/forums.snapshotgames.com/stewpidbear/32/1726_2.png) [@stewpidbear](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/stewpidbear)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2021, 8:40pm UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/phoenix-point-declining-player-base/13234/387 "2021-06-06T20:40:40Z")
There is a great amount of hostility in these forum topics in my opinion,( thought I‘d better put that in😉). And that what gets me, it’s a game, that many people have finished, so going to court to complain it’s broken will earn a lot of money for the lawyers and probably take years longer than the life of the game to prove/disprove. ---
**Author:** ![oSiyeza](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex036/user_avatar/forums.snapshotgames.com/osiyeza/32/3610_2.png) [@oSiyeza](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/oSiyeza)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2021, 8:45pm UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/phoenix-point-declining-player-base/13234/388 "2021-06-06T20:45:58Z")
Yes, of course. Even if the devs are probably not here. But I have the right to do so too. When somody is attacking other people in a conversation you are taking part in. You can say nothing if you want, and let the insult go, and allow everybody to insult anybody as long as it is not you. I don’t do that. If somebody is disrespectful, it bothers me. I am a part of the conversation too, and I can say insuslting people is not ok. If you insult people you are not just pushing away the people you are insulting, but everybody that does not want to participate on the insult. ---
**Author:** ![rasvoja](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex036/user_avatar/forums.snapshotgames.com/rasvoja/32/4223_2.png) [@rasvoja](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/rasvoja)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2021, 8:47pm UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/phoenix-point-declining-player-base/13234/389 "2021-06-06T20:47:22Z")
> [@oSiyeza](#): > > Because they have no actual reason to do it. > > Being polite will not harm you. EU courts shall judge that,not you, super all knowing man. Oh I was very polite for long time and did everything in my power, but it’s wall one talks to Additional pressure is needed, take your political correctness somewhere else ---
**Author:** ![rasvoja](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex036/user_avatar/forums.snapshotgames.com/rasvoja/32/4223_2.png) [@rasvoja](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/rasvoja)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2021, 8:49pm UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/phoenix-point-declining-player-base/13234/390 "2021-06-06T20:49:27Z")
> [@Nattfarinn](#): > > And devs have the right to do so. We ll see about that. Waiting for support answer and ready to turn to EU consumer protection office in Bulgaria. They will first mediate, If company plays dumb, it automatically goes to court ---
**Author:** ![Nattfarinn](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex036/user_avatar/forums.snapshotgames.com/nattfarinn/32/2600_2.png) [@Nattfarinn](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/Nattfarinn)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2021, 8:49pm UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/phoenix-point-declining-player-base/13234/391 "2021-06-06T20:49:36Z")
> [@oSiyeza](#): > > But I have the right to do so too. We have been asked not to. 🙂 If you think someone writes something inappropriate there is a flag option. > If you have an issue with a post then please flag it to let a member of the Snapshot team assess it or ignore it and move on. > – [https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/request-to-admins/13380/17](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/request-to-admins/13380/17) ---
**Author:** ![oSiyeza](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex036/user_avatar/forums.snapshotgames.com/osiyeza/32/3610_2.png) [@oSiyeza](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/oSiyeza)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2021, 9:02pm UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/phoenix-point-declining-player-base/13234/392 "2021-06-06T21:02:09Z")
> [@Nattfarinn](#): > > We have been asked not to. 🙂 If you think someone writes something inappropriate there is a flag option. That would be fair, and I’m happy to leave harmless or isolated comments go. But I have seen the same claim made by the same people repeated a hundred times, across dozens of posts. I call on it, because when all conversations become this, any conversation me or others want to make dissapears. Like trying to whisper in the middle of a shouting chorus. Maybe it is not fair for the moderators, but is obvious that they either can’t or wont stop these comments. > [@rasvoja](#): > > Waiting for support answer and ready to turn to EU consumer Please keep us up to date to how you request goes. And I swear I’m not being sarcastic. If you make EU consumer protection do something about your claim, you would be doing something truly impressive. > [@rasvoja](#): > > (e.g. animations not playing) Also what is the animation bug you tak so much about? I have not seen that bug. ---
**Author:** ![Nattfarinn](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex036/user_avatar/forums.snapshotgames.com/nattfarinn/32/2600_2.png) [@Nattfarinn](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/Nattfarinn)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2021, 9:14pm UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/phoenix-point-declining-player-base/13234/393 "2021-06-06T21:14:57Z")
> [@rasvoja](#): > > Waiting for support answer and ready to turn to EU consumer protection office in Bulgaria. They will first mediate, If company plays dumb, it automatically goes to court I doubt that. 😛 If you had read the consumer contract regulations you would knew that after 6 months since you purchase, it is now on you to prove that the fault is major and was there at the moment you bought it. 🤪 > [@rasvoja](#): > > They will first mediate, If company plays dumb, it automatically goes to court First you will have hard times proving what you are about to claim. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![oSiyeza](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex036/user_avatar/forums.snapshotgames.com/osiyeza/32/3610_2.png) [@oSiyeza](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/oSiyeza)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2021, 9:19pm UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/phoenix-point-declining-player-base/13234/394 "2021-06-06T21:19:48Z")
I think it is even worse: > Under EU rules, a **trader must repair, replace, reduce the price or give you a refund** if goods you bought turn out to be faulty or do not look or work as advertised. > > If you bought a **product or a service online or outside of a shop** (by telephone, mail order, from a door-to-door salesperson), you also have the right to cancel and return your order within 14 days, for any reason and without a justification. EU laws only allow Internet goods to cancel and return in 14 days. I think the 14 days steam refund policy just tries to play lose with this. Then there is this: > European law principally provides a right of withdrawal on software sales. However, it can be and typically is excluded for boxed software that has been opened and for digitally provided content once it is provided to the end user. This is what happens when you make a transaction on Steam: The EU statutory right of withdrawal ends 14 days after your purchase or the moment you start downloading the content and services for the first time (whichever is sooner). > **[FAQs|Guarantees, cancelling and returning your purchases - Your Europe](https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/consumers/shopping/guarantees-returns/faq/index_en.htm)** > > FAQs - How to claim the 2-year guarantee for EU purchases, get a repair, replacement or refund, how to cancel orders made outside shops (online, by phone, mail order). > **[Steam Support :: EU/UK Right of Withdrawal and Steam Refunds](https://help.steampowered.com/en/faqs/view/369C-3E9F-76FD-DEDA)** ---
**Author:** ![Nattfarinn](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex036/user_avatar/forums.snapshotgames.com/nattfarinn/32/2600_2.png) [@Nattfarinn](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/Nattfarinn)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2021, 9:27pm UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/phoenix-point-declining-player-base/13234/395 "2021-06-06T21:27:32Z")
> [@oSiyeza](#): > > EU laws only allow Internet goods to cancel and return in 14 days. I think the 14 days steam refund policy just tries to play lose with this. > [@oSiyeza](#): > > You cannot cancel a contract for digital content **once downloading is under way** Canceling the contract can be done without a reason within a given period before you have started download. But guarantee for faulty goods apply regardless. He is right about: > You **always have the right to a minimum 2-year guarantee** at no cost, regardless of whether you bought your goods online, in a shop or by mail order. But! > When does the two-year legal guarantee start? > – The two-year period starts from the day you received the product And: > The legal guarantee is valid for a period of two years throughout the EU. But there are certain conditions. > > The legal guarantee covers any **defects presumed to have existed at the time of delivery** and which become apparent within a period of two years. However, the crucial period is the 6 months after you bought your product: > > - Any fault that appears within 6 months will be presumed to have existed at the time of delivery. (…) > - After 6 months, you can still hold the seller responsible for any defects up to the end of the two-year guarantee period. However, the seller can ask you to prove that the defect existed when your goods were delivered. This is often difficult, and you will may have to involve a technical expert. ---
**Author:** ![Nattfarinn](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex036/user_avatar/forums.snapshotgames.com/nattfarinn/32/2600_2.png) [@Nattfarinn](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/Nattfarinn)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2021, 9:39pm UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/phoenix-point-declining-player-base/13234/396 "2021-06-06T21:39:58Z")
> [@oSiyeza](#): > > That would be fair, and I’m happy to leave harmless or isolated comments go. But I have seen the same claim made by the same people repeated a hundred times, across dozens of posts. Flag them, and if _“they either can’t or wont stop these comments”_ (yet I am pretty sure they can) it will mean no harm is done and you should stop caring about it either. ---
**Author:** ![oSiyeza](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex036/user_avatar/forums.snapshotgames.com/osiyeza/32/3610_2.png) [@oSiyeza](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/oSiyeza)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2021, 9:41pm UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/phoenix-point-declining-player-base/13234/397 "2021-06-06T21:41:54Z")
So there are two different things here. Guarranty > if goods you bought turn out to be faulty or do not look or work as advertised. And right of withdrawal. > Once an item purchased online is delivered, you have **14 days to decide** whether or not to keep it. Refunds in steam and other are considered as the latter. > For any **digital content** purchased online, you have agreed upon checkout that the withdrawal period will expire 14 days after you purchase such digital content or when you start downloading the content for the first time, whichever is sooner. Now you are claimed that the first should be applied. And You are right, but it is not as far as I know. The 2 year guarantee period applyes to any type of good. But what they dont tell you is that they mean physical goods. Software is not actually seen as a Good, but sometimes as a good and sometimes as a service. The 2 year guaranty does not apply to software products now. So you are stuck with the 14 days “right of withdrawal”. But of course this is not set in stone, ans tou could actually try to go to court. But you would be waiting for years if you are lucky. > [@Nattfarinn](#): > > Flag them, and if _“they either can’t or wont stop these comments”_ (yet I am pretty sure they can) it will mean no harm is done and you should stop caring about it either. Fair, but that applies both ways. How is me telling others they should not insult the devs different to you saying me I should not do that?. Shouldnt you just flag me and assume that if my comment is not removed, it is just ok. 😉? Here is the thing: I can quote you right now, a dozen comments that have been flagged. Where someone is attacked using direct insults, includding comments on their family, their languaje, their education, their political beliefs, their health or their fammily; that have not been removed in this forum. Is ok if the devs see this comments as harmless and dont act on them? yeah, maybe. I also know comments that have been flagged where people is told to not attack others. Those have also not been removed and seem to be ok as well. ---
**Author:** ![Nattfarinn](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex036/user_avatar/forums.snapshotgames.com/nattfarinn/32/2600_2.png) [@Nattfarinn](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/Nattfarinn)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2021, 9:58pm UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/phoenix-point-declining-player-base/13234/399 "2021-06-06T21:58:15Z")
> [@oSiyeza](#): > > But what they dont tell you is that they mean physical goods. You may be right (or may not). They tell very little about the definition of goods. EU law is, at least the redacted part, a bit vauge. ---
**Author:** ![oSiyeza](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex036/user_avatar/forums.snapshotgames.com/osiyeza/32/3610_2.png) [@oSiyeza](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/oSiyeza)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2021, 9:59pm UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/phoenix-point-declining-player-base/13234/400 "2021-06-06T21:59:39Z")
Oh, I actually dont know. I just searched about it, and seems to be agreed upon everywhere that software is not protected. > At the time the French legislator implemented the concept of hidden defects into law they did not consider the case of the licensing of intangible goods. **The Civil Code only envisions the application of the warranty in sales** (_Articles 1641 et seq._) **and lease/rental agreements** (_Articles 1721 et seq._). From there the doctrine tends to exclude computer programs from the benefit of the warranty on the ground that software isn’t a good and that the Civil Code really only applies the aforementioned articles in respect of tangible goods. This is particularly true when there is no transfer of ownership in the software and only a remote access to a software platform is granted for purposes of receiving online services, as is the case for **Software-as-a-Service** ( **SaaS** ) types of engagements, without an actual download of the code. [https://zsmlm4a3rotusjydbe76hsilou-acenmqlaqxnvxuq-transatlantic-lawyer.translate.goog/negotiating-software-contracts-eu/](https://zsmlm4a3rotusjydbe76hsilou-acenmqlaqxnvxuq-transatlantic-lawyer.translate.goog/negotiating-software-contracts-eu/) ---
**Author:** ![Nattfarinn](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex036/user_avatar/forums.snapshotgames.com/nattfarinn/32/2600_2.png) [@Nattfarinn](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/Nattfarinn)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2021, 10:02pm UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/phoenix-point-declining-player-base/13234/401 "2021-06-06T22:02:25Z")
I have checked at the source and @rasvoja is screwed. 😛 > 1. For the purposes of this Directive: > (a) consumer: shall mean any natural person who, in the > contracts covered by this Directive, is acting for purposes > which are not related to his trade, business or profession; > (b) **consumer goods: shall mean any tangible movable item** , with > the exception of: > — goods sold by way of execution or otherwise by > authority of law, > — water and gas where they are not put up for sale in a > limited volume or set quantity, > — electricity; Source: [https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELEX:31999L0044&from=EN](https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELEX:31999L0044&from=EN) ---
**Author:** ![Nattfarinn](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex036/user_avatar/forums.snapshotgames.com/nattfarinn/32/2600_2.png) [@Nattfarinn](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/Nattfarinn)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2021, 10:10pm UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/phoenix-point-declining-player-base/13234/402 "2021-06-06T22:10:34Z")
> [@oSiyeza](#): > > How is me telling others they should not insult the devs different to you saying me I should not do that?. Oh, you can tell the whatever you want (and they may flag you, or just ignore 😛). I just don’t think doing it makes them in any way obliged to obey, so why bother. I don’t always agree with the way how drages describe things, but I do see why he is upset and why he says what he says. Something “snaped” in me about 3 days ago and I turned into solipsistic hivemind, and nothing actually matters anymore (something like rasvoja, but without eating shrooms of unknown origin). ---
**Author:** ![oSiyeza](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex036/user_avatar/forums.snapshotgames.com/osiyeza/32/3610_2.png) [@oSiyeza](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/oSiyeza)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2021, 10:22pm UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/phoenix-point-declining-player-base/13234/403 "2021-06-06T22:22:23Z")
> [@Nattfarinn](#): > > I just don’t think doing it makes them in any way obliged to obey, so why bother. You are not wrong, but it was never about obeying. Have we abandoned even the posibility of convincing? of giving compeling arguments? of just being able to say, “look, maybe you should consider you are wrong” or “maybe you are right, I think I was wrong”. Whats the point of anything all we can do is talk pass each other as if we are just talking alone?. If noone ever reflects on any opinion? Are we doomed to just not listen to anyone anymore? To me that is how one ends feeling like a solipsistic hivemind, where nothing actually matters anymore. ---
**Author:** ![Nattfarinn](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex036/user_avatar/forums.snapshotgames.com/nattfarinn/32/2600_2.png) [@Nattfarinn](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/Nattfarinn)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2021, 10:35pm UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/phoenix-point-declining-player-base/13234/404 "2021-06-06T22:35:18Z")
> [@oSiyeza](#): > > Have we abandoned even the posibility of convincing? of giving compeling arguments? of just being able to say, “look, maybe you should consider you are wrong” or “maybe you are right, I think I was wrong”. Not everything can be talked through by applying logic. 😛 When people are upset they need empathy, not logic. 🤷‍♂️ (Fuck, that was deep :P) > [@oSiyeza](#): > > To me that is how one ends feeling like a solipsistic hivemind, where nothing actually matters anymore. It isn’t that bad, you should just at least give it a try. 😛 [Previous page](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/phoenix-point-declining-player-base/13234.md?page=19) [Next page](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/phoenix-point-declining-player-base/13234.md?page=21)