# My take in the Action Point System
**URL:** https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/my-take-in-the-action-point-system/4694
**Category:** Phoenix Point
**Created:** [October 5, 2019, 8:58pm UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/my-take-in-the-action-point-system/4694 "2019-10-05T20:58:25Z")
**Posts on this page:** 15
**Page:** 4
### Author:  [@Wormerine](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/Wormerine)
#### Post date: [October 13, 2019, 9:57pm UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/my-take-in-the-action-point-system/4694/61 "2019-10-13T21:57:18Z")
> [@SpiteAndMalice](#):
>
> I was, as a PC gamer, looking at that prototype and thinking, damn, I would have loved to have got my hands on that. It certainly didn’t look overly complex when compared to other PC games of the genre, on first impression
And so did I. I remember seeing it for the first time, and being surprised they didn’t go with it. Cones of sight, adjustable aim, AP units those were all things I missed in FiraXCOM.
But he gave the reason for change, and I do buy it, as it is in line with overall design and Firaxis legacy: clear trade-offs.
Let’s not pretend that UFO’s design is some holy grail of perfection - AP system was less about smart tactical play, and more about counting and micromanaging of AP.
Could the system be modernised and made easier to interact with by modern UI? Yes, I believe it could be. But that’s more of a Paradox thing, not Firaxis. Firaxis were always to make a Firaxis game, and they changed design so it suits their sensibilities.
I am just quite tired of people blaming every change they don’t like on “dirty consolers”.
---
### Author:  [@BoredEngineer](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/BoredEngineer)
#### Post date: [October 13, 2019, 10:39pm UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/my-take-in-the-action-point-system/4694/62 "2019-10-13T22:39:18Z")
> [@Wormerine](#):
>
> If those numbers are accurate, then I do see your point. Did you get number of sales for FiraXCOM from any particular source? Between PC and console sales this number sounds suspiciously low.
I didn’t realize that SteamSpy still works, they have different estimate:
> **[XCOM: Enemy Unknown -](https://steamspy.com/app/200510)**
>
> Steam Spy automatically gathers data from Steam user profiles, analyzes it and presents in simple, yet beautiful, manner. Steam Spy is designed to be helpful for indie developers, journalists, students and all parties interested in PC gaming and its...
and add sales from console, so it’s not 1 mil but probably 4 or maybe higher
don’t know how accurate it is, these are the number for XCom2
> **[XCOM 2 -](https://steamspy.com/app/268500)**
>
> Steam Spy automatically gathers data from Steam user profiles, analyzes it and presents in simple, yet beautiful, manner. Steam Spy is designed to be helpful for indie developers, journalists, students and all parties interested in PC gaming and its...
and 2 mil for sequel looks a bit too low
> [@Wormerine](#):
>
> Both games are still from nineties, and I don’t see how Fallout has anything to do with XCOM. The point I was trying to make is, how many turnbased tactical games in XXI c. did we get before FiraXCOM showed up? Maybe we are still waiting for the great turn-based tactical game to come out, but at least they are being made. Hey, Empire of Sin is in production, an XCOM-like-mafia game is something I have been wanting since mid 2000s.
I know about many attempts at remakes of JA, well technically they still trying 😃
War themed there was Fallout Tactics, Silent Storm, Valkyria Chronicles, Shadowrun(?) A bunch of various Warhammer themed games. There where some others of smaller scale, meaning more niche games that mostly sold from other shops like half of Combat Mission came out at that time. The UFO series, granted one of them was realtime. It’s not like others just didn’t exist or something.
You have games like Battle Brothers which have no connection to XCom but it’s one of the more popular TB tactics. Meaning people do play those, regardless of existence of XCom.
I can’t say that XCom is somehow “resurrected” TB tactical games, because in essence it’s not one of them like X-Com or Jagged Alliance was. Like Invisible Corps for example, you can call it a TB tactical game but would you recommend it to a fan of classical XCom?
> [@Wormerine](#):
>
> It seems that you feel about FiraXCOM similar way I feel about Dragon Age: Origins - not being willing to acknowledge the good it has done, due to personal disappointment with the game.
It just annoys me in some of the gamedesign choices that where made. And I’m not taking about being too different to X-Com. I mean things like how classes and character focus drive you into a spiral of fails. Or how so many things in the game are meta abilities and arbitrary rules, the concept of pods. I can’t even play it anymore without mods.
Dragon Age: Origins - I actually really like it, unlike what came after it. I remember it as really fun fantasy RPG where playing as a good guy had more negative consequences compared to being selfish 😃
> [@Wormerine](#):
>
> But that is the game they were going to make. They wouldn’t make XCOM you want, because it is not in their style. So yes, I do believe that many choices they made were better for **THEIR** XCOM.
Fair enough.
> [@Wormerine](#):
>
> I suppose, that unlike you I don’t care about the IP. Unlike story driven games, which can make irreversable damage to characters, story and worlds, purely gameplay oriented games can change and evolve.
I just associate IP with the core game design. So if next Crusader Kings becomes a card game I would probably be pissed 😃 as that would be a bit too much of evolution. Imho some games are better to be left alone. Like not every book or a movie needs a sequel.
---
### Author:  [@MemT](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/MemT)
#### Post date: [October 13, 2019, 10:52pm UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/my-take-in-the-action-point-system/4694/63 "2019-10-13T22:52:47Z")
> [@Wormerine](#):
>
> And so did I. I remember seeing it for the first time, and being surprised they didn’t go with it. Cones of sight, adjustable aim, AP units those were all things I missed in FiraXCOM.
I also had the same thoughts when i saw that video way back then, i thought it was way more interesting that the stiff two point system, however after playing “old” AP system games i understood why they did it. there was also a part in the video were they said using the AP to increase the aim of the soilder, this would be a nice a add-on too.
P.P is is updating the “old” AP system without going the firaxis route, but the AP system in P.P can be further improved, i came to the forum to talk about what was bothering of such system, even though small, it is still something that is present, the visual representation of unspent points in the game.
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### Author:  [@Wormerine](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/Wormerine)
#### Post date: [October 13, 2019, 11:38pm UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/my-take-in-the-action-point-system/4694/64 "2019-10-13T23:38:54Z")
> [@BoredEngineer](#):
>
> > [@Wormerine](#):
> >
> > It seems that you feel about FiraXCOM similar way I feel about Dragon Age: Origins - not being willing to acknowledge the good it has done, due to personal disappointment with the game.
>
> It just annoys me in some of the gamedesign choices that where made. And I’m not taking about being too different to X-Com. I mean things like how classes and character focus drive you into a spiral of fails. Or how so many things in the game are meta abilities and arbitrary rules, the concept of pods. I can’t even play it anymore without mods.
> Dragon Age: Origins - I actually really like it, unlike what came after it. I remember it as really fun fantasy RPG where playing as a good guy had more negative consequences compared to being selfish 😃
But it was a “dumbed down” RPG, instead of spiritual successor of Baldur’s Gate i have been waiting for. 😉 Though an NPC trying to sell me DLC in my camp was what really left a bitter taste.
Luckily Obsidian with Pillars of Eternity has nicely scratched that itch nicely.
---
### Author:  [@SpiteAndMalice](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/SpiteAndMalice)
#### Post date: [October 14, 2019, 12:34am UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/my-take-in-the-action-point-system/4694/65 "2019-10-14T00:34:41Z")
> [@Wormerine](#):
>
> But it was a “dumbed down” RPG, instead of spiritual successor of Baldur’s Gate i have been waiting for. 😉
Was it trying to be a spiritual successor to Baldur’s Gate? If so I’m stunned, I played through, and also liked, both games but I would have never made that connection. If anything I thought that Dragon Age played like Summoner.
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### Author:  [@SpiteAndMalice](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/SpiteAndMalice)
#### Post date: [October 14, 2019, 12:46am UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/my-take-in-the-action-point-system/4694/66 "2019-10-14T00:46:12Z")
> [@Wormerine](#):
>
> I am just quite tired of people blaming every change they don’t like on “dirty consolers”.
I’m a console gamer myself, I just think that it suits a different style of game to the PC. I’ll use the console for FPS, Driving, platform games, and Twin Stick shooters. But anything with deep layers of strategy in it, I’ll use a PC.
> [@Wormerine](#):
>
> Listen man, the whole original post was a response to a silly claim that consoles “dumbed down” XCOM.
Silly why? It wouldn’t be the first time that a game had this treatment in order to accommodate the console market.
I’ll never forget trying to play Populus on the Playstation 1, I was so made up that such a great old PC title was being converted over to my console, and my god it sucked when I got my hands on it. I don’t think I’ve ever once come across a serious strategy title that’s been remade well for consoles. The difference that came later, is that devs learnt that it was smarter to develop the game for all markets at the same time, you don’t get a remake of the game anymore, you get a port and a simultaneous release, and in order to do that for strategy titles you have to dumb down/streamline the gameplay to accommodate that console market.
Or do you think that console gamers would have lapped up an old style Xcom game in the way that they did the Firaxis version? (PC gamers would have, they’d been longing for it.)
---
### Author:  [@Wormerine](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/Wormerine)
#### Post date: [October 14, 2019, 12:47am UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/my-take-in-the-action-point-system/4694/67 "2019-10-14T00:47:29Z")
> [@SpiteAndMalice](#):
>
> > [@Wormerine](#):
> >
> > But it was a “dumbed down” RPG, instead of spiritual successor of Baldur’s Gate i have been waiting for. 😉
>
> Was it trying to be a spiritual successor to Baldur’s Gate? If so I’m stunned, I played through, and also liked, both games but I would have never made that connection. If anything I thought that Dragon Age played like Summoner.
There was quite a bit of marketing around it, yes. Bioware going back to it’s roots etc. Whenever it was devs intention - I don’t know. Not that I expected isometric D&D - I just found it dull after first couple hours (up to the end of battle of Ostagar). I also thought, that Bioware didn’t pull the morally ambiguous writing well - it had all the traps but none of the appeal of their traditional black&white approach. And it was the first game of theirs I notice the overindulgent exposition of boring and unremarkable lore (we look and sound like every other dwarf you have ever seen in the videogame, so let us tell you our indepth history, which will in no way enrich or expand us).
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### Author:  [@Yokes](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/Yokes)
#### Post date: [October 14, 2019, 12:56am UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/my-take-in-the-action-point-system/4694/68 "2019-10-14T00:56:14Z")
> [@SpiteAndMalice](#):
>
> > But it was a “dumbed down” RPG, instead of spiritual successor of Baldur’s Gate i have been waiting for. 😉
>
> Was it trying to be a spiritual successor to Baldur’s Gate?
Probably just like Phoenix Point is spiritual successor of X-COM. 😉
PS. How do you make double nested quotes? Do you quote two times and then edit one quote to include another?
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### Author:  [@SpiteAndMalice](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/SpiteAndMalice)
#### Post date: [October 14, 2019, 1:02am UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/my-take-in-the-action-point-system/4694/69 "2019-10-14T01:02:37Z")
> [@BoredEngineer](#):
>
> I know about many attempts at remakes of JA, well technically they still trying 😃
> War themed there was Fallout Tactics, Silent Storm, Valkyria Chronicles, Shadowrun(?) A bunch of various Warhammer themed games. There where some others of smaller scale, meaning more niche games that mostly sold from other shops like half of Combat Mission came out at that time.
I think they’re trying to make those JA remakes worse and worse with every go. 😉
What was Combat Mission like? I’ve seen it being mentioned a couple of times, but I never heard of it.
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### Author:  [@SpiteAndMalice](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/SpiteAndMalice)
#### Post date: [October 14, 2019, 1:05am UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/my-take-in-the-action-point-system/4694/70 "2019-10-14T01:05:54Z")
> [@Wormerine](#):
>
> Both games are still from nineties, and I don’t see how Fallout has anything to do with XCOM.
Not the newer Fallout games.
Fallout Tactics - [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PGi4M4qte4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PGi4M4qte4)
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### Author:  [@SpiteAndMalice](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/SpiteAndMalice)
#### Post date: [October 14, 2019, 1:08am UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/my-take-in-the-action-point-system/4694/71 "2019-10-14T01:08:42Z")
> [@Wormerine](#):
>
> And it was the first game of theirs I notice the overindulgent exposition of boring and unremarkable lore (we look and sound like every other dwarf you have ever seen in the videogame, so let us tell you our indepth history, which will in no way enrich or expand us).
Yeah, I didn’t read much of that… I was probably too busy listening to Claudia Black 😉
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### Author:  [@Wormerine](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/Wormerine)
#### Post date: [October 14, 2019, 1:18am UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/my-take-in-the-action-point-system/4694/72 "2019-10-14T01:18:10Z")
> [@SpiteAndMalice](#):
>
> Not the newer Fallout games.
>
> Fallout Tactics - [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PGi4M4qte4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PGi4M4qte4)
Not older either.
Ah, the step child of the original series. Figured it out after posting.
I used to give it a go every few years, but recently forgot about its existence.
---
### Author:  [@BoredEngineer](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/BoredEngineer)
#### Post date: [October 14, 2019, 8:12am UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/my-take-in-the-action-point-system/4694/73 "2019-10-14T08:12:18Z")
> [@SpiteAndMalice](#):
>
> What was Combat Mission like? I’ve seen it being mentioned a couple of times, but I never heard of it.
It’s a brigade level tactics game covering WW2 and more modern military conflicts. One of the cool features is simulation of communication chain, meaning that you have to maintain a radio or visual/audial contact between your platoons to be able to give them commands. There is a large degree of micro control available, like you can take a single squad from your platoon, split it into fireteams, tell them to get a bazooka and go and try to deal with a tank blocking your approach. It’s more like a training sim than a game. They have a simple but effective solution to commanding many units in real time. In turn based mode, each turn takes about 30 seconds. So you give out commands, end turn, game simulates next 30 seconds and you can watch results, with ability to scroll playtime and move camera around. The other option is to play game in real-time with pause, but it make it a bit more reactive and you might miss important events if you are not looking at right direction.
[ ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPM7Jr7V5dg)
Never version looks way better
[ ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_aBpHANRG0)
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### Author:  [@SpiteAndMalice](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/SpiteAndMalice)
#### Post date: [October 14, 2019, 8:20pm UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/my-take-in-the-action-point-system/4694/74 "2019-10-14T20:20:46Z")
Cheers, I’ll have a look at that after the football…
On first impression it looks a little like Wargame Red Dragon, am I anywhere close?
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### Author:  [@BoredEngineer](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/BoredEngineer)
#### Post date: [October 15, 2019, 8:07am UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/my-take-in-the-action-point-system/4694/75 "2019-10-15T08:07:05Z")
There are some similarities but they are superficial. Combat Mission is rather slow paced and requires more coordination between units. It uses real scale and real stats for units, instead of being balanced around multiplayer.
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