# Chirons and Sirens balance **URL:** \ **Category:** Game Feedback\ **Created:** [February 23, 2020, 9:07pm UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/chirons-and-sirens-balance/9540 "2020-02-23T21:07:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![VOLAND](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/c6cbf5/32.png) [@VOLAND](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/VOLAND)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2020, 3:38pm UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/chirons-and-sirens-balance/9540/21 "2020-02-25T15:38:07Z")
TBH, I never got a base defense mission early in the game, only in mid-late game. By that time the Pandas clustered at the entrance don’t stand a chance (which makes these missions a different kind of stupid, as is being discussed in another thread). Anyway, I wasn’t aware that this could happen. IMO mind control should work the same way for priests and for sirens - limited to one creature. ---
**Author:** ![kingius](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex036/user_avatar/forums.snapshotgames.com/kingius/32/191_2.png) [@kingius](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/kingius)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2020, 4:24pm UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/chirons-and-sirens-balance/9540/22 "2020-02-25T16:24:02Z")
Why not multi class? Because I’m not a min-max RPGer and I have a fundamental dislike of the practice. Personally I prefer rigid class based systems, for reasons of immersion, or systems with no classes at all. I feel that multiclassing is the worst of both worlds and serves the kind of player who wants to ‘break the system’… i.e. the kind of player who causes us all to suffer nerfs in every patch, haha ---
**Author:** ![VOLAND](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/c6cbf5/32.png) [@VOLAND](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/VOLAND)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2020, 5:36pm UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/chirons-and-sirens-balance/9540/23 "2020-02-25T17:36:46Z")
Lol, that’s an odd way of looking at things, if you don’t mind me saying, but to each his own, I guess. However, if you are playing with self imposed restrictions you have to expect that your options will be more limited. BTW, I don’t multiclass all my soldiers either and anyway you look at it a jetpack heavy is a poor choice for a forward scout (because low perception + stealth). ---
**Author:** ![LouisdeFuines](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex036/user_avatar/forums.snapshotgames.com/louisdefuines/32/2605_2.png) [@LouisdeFuines](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/LouisdeFuines)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2020, 5:45pm UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/chirons-and-sirens-balance/9540/24 "2020-02-25T17:45:07Z")
> [@VOLAND](#): > > BTW, I don’t multiclass all my soldiers either and anyway you look at it a jetpack heavy is a poor choice for a forward scout (because low perception + stealth). I don`t multiclass the Infiltrator, since he got all abilities I need by himself. ---
**Author:** ![Leanproduction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/bbce88/32.png) [@Leanproduction](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/Leanproduction)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2020, 7:57pm UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/chirons-and-sirens-balance/9540/25 "2020-02-25T19:57:28Z")
> [@VOLAND](#): > > Anyway, I wasn’t aware that this could happen. IMO mind control should work the same way for priests and for sirens - limited to one creature. Or this is good example how a vivisection of a siren could work. After vivisection you can build some kind of mind controll improver which allows to control more than one enemy… ---
**Author:** ![MichaelIgnotus](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex036/user_avatar/forums.snapshotgames.com/michaelignotus/32/1793_2.png) [@MichaelIgnotus](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/MichaelIgnotus)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2020, 10:34pm UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/chirons-and-sirens-balance/9540/26 "2020-02-25T22:34:09Z")
> [@VOLAND](#): > > Yes, that is true, but not in the same turn. That is incorrect. I had a Siren (surprisingly) MC 2 of my guys in the same turn on the last mission I’ve just run. She didn’t last very long - several sniper shots to the head dealt with the MC, but she stayed up long enough to claw the first guy she’d MC’d and take a very satisfying RF coup-de-grace in return - but she definitely MC’d 2 of my peeps on the same turn. ---
**Author:** ![Lunazathoth](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex036/user_avatar/forums.snapshotgames.com/lunazathoth/32/2305_2.png) [@Lunazathoth](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/Lunazathoth)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2020, 10:48pm UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/chirons-and-sirens-balance/9540/27 "2020-02-25T22:48:09Z")
Yeah if we’re still taking a census on this I’ve also seen a Siren mind control two soldiers in one turn. Doesn’t happen super often (usually only cos of sneaky snakey girls in Lairs) but it’s happened to me a couple of times. ---
**Author:** ![kingius](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex036/user_avatar/forums.snapshotgames.com/kingius/32/191_2.png) [@kingius](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/kingius)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2020, 7:37am UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/chirons-and-sirens-balance/9540/28 "2020-02-26T07:37:16Z")
Maybe it seems odd to you, but I’m familiar with 3rd ed and it’s balance problems. There is no wonder that Snapshot can’t balance this game properly, I feel, with multiclassing present. The classes themselves can be perfectly balanced (spoiler - they’re not!) but the number of combinations of these makes the job of balancing much more difficult. Anyway… another system with multiclassing… another system with game balance problems due to players min/maxing and skill use combinations that the developers did not foresee. Coincidence? I think not. I expect further nerf patches over the game’s lifetime because of this design decision, and others, that I feel are part of the ‘wrong approach’ to game system design. ---
**Author:** ![VOLAND](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/c6cbf5/32.png) [@VOLAND](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/VOLAND)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2020, 11:52am UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/chirons-and-sirens-balance/9540/29 "2020-02-26T11:52:53Z")
I’m not familiar with D&D and its class system (beyond some adaptations to PC, such as BG) For my P&P RPGs (back when I had time for them…) I also preferred classless systems. However, I wouldn’t compare PP’s class system to that of an RPG. PP’s class system is not about character development, it’s a tool for managing the skills sandbox, to enable the creation of very distinct builds that suit the player’s style. IMO, the OP holes don’t happen because of multiclassing - they can easily arise within one class (see 100% stealth, electric reinforcement, infiltrator’s damage buffs, faster than light travel with dash with high speed and light armor) - , but because of buffs/effects stacking, AP refunds and skills that allow to do damage without AP cost (now mostly gone, after the last nerf patch). So as not to go off topic, you can check this thread I started on the subject. [A proposal on how to rebalance skills](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/a-proposal-on-how-to-rebalance-skills/9178) ---
**Author:** ![VOLAND](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/c6cbf5/32.png) [@VOLAND](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/VOLAND)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2020, 11:54am UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/chirons-and-sirens-balance/9540/30 "2020-02-26T11:54:39Z")
Yes, I definitely stand corrected, as multiple sightings of this happening have been confirmed 🙂 > [@Leanproduction](#): > > After vivisection you can build some kind of mind controll improver which allows to control more than one enemy… Yep, that would be nice. ---
**Author:** ![Ementrude](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex036/user_avatar/forums.snapshotgames.com/ementrude/32/3037_2.png) [@Ementrude](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/Ementrude)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2020, 7:14am UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/chirons-and-sirens-balance/9540/31 "2020-02-28T07:14:18Z")
> [@LouisdeFuines](#): > > But still thinking: > Is there only one way to fight mortar Chirons and late game Heavies from NJ? The anvil armour? > I consider it unfair, that those just hit me in the face and I can`t do anything about it. Stand close to builds etc. They fire in large arcs. If there’s something in the way they can’t hit you - that is their weakness! Often I can’t fire a grenade launcher to land on my target due to this effect. Stay close to cover and as old X-com Apocalypse used to display before a mission (loading screen) ‘Don’t get shot!’ ---
**Author:** ![kingius](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex036/user_avatar/forums.snapshotgames.com/kingius/32/191_2.png) [@kingius](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/kingius)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2020, 7:53am UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/chirons-and-sirens-balance/9540/32 "2020-02-28T07:53:13Z")
I disagree on the root causes of balance issues because multiclassing does actively encourage the wrong type of behaviour from players, imho. I feel there is a problem when a games designer purposely creates a system that encourages players to try to break it (by finding the GREATEST BUILD, YAY) but then punishes the players for doing just that by nerfing the skills they are using. No wonder some players are leaving, sometimes forever. We’ve basically got not just a difference in philosophy between the game designer and its players but a fundamental misunderstanding that they are behind the problem who’s symptoms they are trying to fix. On a different note though, it’s good that you are proposing how to rebalance the skills - and by extension the game - because I feel someone needs to tell the designers how to do their jobs better. I watched the recent Q&A on Facebook and was not impressed by the lack of insight shown in the answers. There’s even another guy in the interview that basically just says ‘excellent’ to everything - is this how their internal design meetings go? One hopes not. I get the impression more thought should be put into every aspect of this game that has been put in - and is currently being done. Anyway these are just my opinions. ---
**Author:** ![VanGlyuk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/2bfe46/32.png) [@VanGlyuk](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/VanGlyuk)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2020, 9:27am UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/chirons-and-sirens-balance/9540/33 "2020-02-28T09:27:22Z")
> [@kingius](#): > > I feel there is a problem when a games designer purposely creates a system that encourages players to try to break it (by finding the GREATEST BUILD, YAY) but then punishes the players for doing just that by nerfing the skills they are using Can’t agree more. > [@kingius](#): > > because I feel someone needs to tell the designers how to do their jobs better. Yes, at least i feel that, if we don’t write anything, they will break the game even more and i like the game. However i feel that game doesn’t receive enough attention from developers/designers and something inside tells me it will not. > [@kingius](#): > > I get the impression more thought should be put into every aspect of this game that has been put in - and is currently being done. I feel the same, there are good part tho, like diversity in armor skill tree is interesting and with random skills you can try different setups, map is good,factions are cool, but i always get a feeling that lots of stuff has to be tuned to be really good, or at least some patterns have to be removed which drives you crazy. Anyway the last nerf patch when armor piercing assault rifle was nerfed gives a troublesome feeling that designers have no clue about their game and that they don’t care about people who already bought the game and trying to enjoy it. [Previous page](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/chirons-and-sirens-balance/9540.md?page=1)