# Anu melee weapons are still worse than bashing with a Hel cannon **URL:** \ **Category:** Game Feedback\ **Created:** [March 6, 2020, 4:34pm UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/anu-melee-weapons-are-still-worse-than-bashing-with-a-hel-cannon/9721 "2020-03-06T16:34:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![omenomaho](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/6bbea6/32.png) [@omenomaho](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/omenomaho)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2020, 4:34pm UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/anu-melee-weapons-are-still-worse-than-bashing-with-a-hel-cannon/9721/1 "2020-03-06T16:34:46Z")
+20 damage does not cut it in the slightest. Why do we need to put on super special cybernetic armor to bring it down to 1 AP cost where it belongs ? I would lower the damage but lower AP to 1 as well. Then I’d give that particular armor something else in return. That way you are not forced into a specific chest piece that isn’t even Anu if you want to use Anu melee weapons. ---
**Author:** ![trihero1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@trihero1](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/trihero1)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2020, 6:02pm UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/anu-melee-weapons-are-still-worse-than-bashing-with-a-hel-cannon/9721/2 "2020-03-07T18:02:01Z")
I found the Marduk’s Fist (sp?), the second/stronger Anu weapon, to be quite competent, even without the cybernetics. For one thing it has a huge 200 stun rating, meaning most things will be unable to react effectively after taking a blow. Furthermore, bashing can be resisted entirely by enough armor I presume whreas the 160 damage on marduk’s fist is rarely resisted by much if at all. If you can get the cybernetics it just makes things unfair; you can dash once then strike 3 times which is enough to kill any trash mob, with only blowing a dash as the cost. ---
**Author:** ![omenomaho](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/6bbea6/32.png) [@omenomaho](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/omenomaho)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2020, 6:24pm UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/anu-melee-weapons-are-still-worse-than-bashing-with-a-hel-cannon/9721/3 "2020-03-07T18:24:13Z")
Yes, it does damage and dazes. Still, your heavy with strength will do more damage with his Hel cannon than with Anu weapons simply because its only 1 AP and it dazes as well. ---
**Author:** ![trihero1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@trihero1](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/trihero1)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2020, 7:16pm UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/anu-melee-weapons-are-still-worse-than-bashing-with-a-hel-cannon/9721/4 "2020-03-07T19:16:38Z")
How strong is the daze on the heavy? I don’t think it’s 200 strength. ---
**Author:** ![omenomaho](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/6bbea6/32.png) [@omenomaho](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/omenomaho)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2020, 7:41pm UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/anu-melee-weapons-are-still-worse-than-bashing-with-a-hel-cannon/9721/5 "2020-03-07T19:41:43Z")
It probably is not. Thanks to the lacking UI I cannot tell. It still has more utility because 1 AP not only means more damage, but also more mobility to get in range to do that hit (or to run away again). ---
**Author:** ![trihero1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@trihero1](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/trihero1)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2020, 8:03pm UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/anu-melee-weapons-are-still-worse-than-bashing-with-a-hel-cannon/9721/6 "2020-03-07T20:03:19Z")
I don’t agree it has more damage, like I said earlier a bash can be resisted (i.e. do no damage) but I’ve never seen a smash be resisted, I assume it’s due to armor. ---
**Author:** ![Yokes](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex036/user_avatar/forums.snapshotgames.com/yokes/32/310_2.png) [@Yokes](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/Yokes)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2020, 8:06pm UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/anu-melee-weapons-are-still-worse-than-bashing-with-a-hel-cannon/9721/7 "2020-03-07T20:06:48Z")
> [@trihero1](#): > > a bash can be resisted (i.e. do no damage) I have never seen Bash being resisted. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Nattfarinn](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex036/user_avatar/forums.snapshotgames.com/nattfarinn/32/2600_2.png) [@Nattfarinn](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/Nattfarinn)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2020, 9:57pm UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/anu-melee-weapons-are-still-worse-than-bashing-with-a-hel-cannon/9721/8 "2020-03-07T21:57:21Z")
@Yokes, wasn’t you the one who bashed through the game with “heavy militia” type of guys? Or was it @pantolomin? 😛 ---
**Author:** ![VOLAND](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/c6cbf5/32.png) [@VOLAND](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/VOLAND)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2020, 10:28pm UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/anu-melee-weapons-are-still-worse-than-bashing-with-a-hel-cannon/9721/9 "2020-03-07T22:28:22Z")
Yes, a bash can be resisted, but it’s not due to armor. See this ticket on Canny created by @pantolomin : > **[Shock calculation uses only damage done to bodypart | Feedback | Phoenix Point](https://phoenixpoint.canny.io/feedback/p/shock-calculation-uses-only-damage-done-to-bodypart)** > > When bashing an opponent, you apply damage and also shock. Shock is applied if the following is true (StunDamageEffect. "When bashing an opponent, you apply damage and also shock. Shock is applied if the following is true (StunDamageEffect.OnApply): damage done \> target initial health - damage to hit body part So, let’s say that an Arthron has 300 health and I apply 225 damage with my heavy. If I hit the torso (120 HP, 30 armor): 195 \> 300 - 120 → target stunned If I hit an arm (70 HP, 20 armor): 205 \< 300 - 70 → target not stunned If it is a desired behavior, it’s really a RNG design since we can’t choose the hit body port. And seeing the cost of taking return fire if it is not stunned … I’d suggest that the formula be changed to: damage done \> target max health / 2 or: damage done \> 10 x target final WP (and facing the enemy would reliably trigger a bash to the head)" EDIT: > [@omenomaho](#): > > Daze can be resisted. Not the damage. Correct, I was about to clarify it ---
**Author:** ![omenomaho](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/6bbea6/32.png) [@omenomaho](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/omenomaho)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2020, 10:29pm UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/anu-melee-weapons-are-still-worse-than-bashing-with-a-hel-cannon/9721/10 "2020-03-07T22:29:10Z")
Daze can be resisted. Not the damage. ---
**Author:** ![trihero1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@trihero1](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/trihero1)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2020, 10:48pm UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/anu-melee-weapons-are-still-worse-than-bashing-with-a-hel-cannon/9721/11 "2020-03-07T22:48:41Z")
Bash is more susceptible to doing less damage due to armor. If you strike twice on a 40 armor target for 50 bash damage apiece, you only do 20 damage. With one marduk fist strike, you would be doing 160-40 = 120 damage, which is 6 times what bash is doing. Bash also damages the hel canon. ---
**Author:** ![VOLAND](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/c6cbf5/32.png) [@VOLAND](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/VOLAND)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2020, 10:54pm UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/anu-melee-weapons-are-still-worse-than-bashing-with-a-hel-cannon/9721/12 "2020-03-07T22:54:49Z")
> [@omenomaho](#): > > I would lower the damage but lower AP to 1 as well. Then I’d give that particular armor something else in return. That way you are not forced into a specific chest piece that isn’t even Anu if you want to use Anu melee weapons. I haven’t tried out the bionics yet, but I think the melee issue is a bit more complex than that. On the one hand, Anu have berserkers who have adrenaline rush, which carries an accuracy penalty, making it ideal to be used in melee, so they don’t need that bionic arm. On the other hand, though bash is very effective because it scales with strength and costs only 1 AP, the strength scaling is a disadvantage insofar as you have to invest in strength to make it worthwhile. Plus you have to carry a heavy weapon and (unless I’m mistaken) can’t use it with one arm disabled. But on the gripping hand, with enough strength bashing does more damage and strength is a good investment for CQC troops anyway because it raises HPs. Conclusion: I would make melee weapons scale with strength. ---
**Author:** ![VOLAND](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/c6cbf5/32.png) [@VOLAND](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/VOLAND)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2020, 11:01pm UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/anu-melee-weapons-are-still-worse-than-bashing-with-a-hel-cannon/9721/13 "2020-03-07T23:01:55Z")
> [@trihero1](#): > > If you strike twice on a 40 armor target for 50 bash damage apiece, you only do 20 damage Bash scales with strength. At 30 strength and when used with the heavy +50% buff it does 225 damage per AP. > [@Bash, how powerful is it?](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/bash-how-powerful-is-it/9502/2): > > - Bash damage = weapon weight x soldier strength > - Brawler perk (first heavy perk): +50% > - Reckless perk: +30% > - Close combat specialist: +20% > > So a heavy weapon’s weight is 5 (sniper is 4). I brought my heavies (my only recruits) at 30 strength. That means 225 damage per bash. With luck and the two custom perks, you climb at 300 damage. ---
**Author:** ![trihero1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@trihero1](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/trihero1)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2020, 11:14pm UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/anu-melee-weapons-are-still-worse-than-bashing-with-a-hel-cannon/9721/14 "2020-03-07T23:14:24Z")
How much damage is Marduk’s doing? (without brawler/reckless/CQC) What’s the formula for a weapon strike is it also affected by str? ---
**Author:** ![VOLAND](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/c6cbf5/32.png) [@VOLAND](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/VOLAND)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2020, 11:21pm UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/anu-melee-weapons-are-still-worse-than-bashing-with-a-hel-cannon/9721/15 "2020-03-07T23:21:43Z")
> [@trihero1](#): > > What’s the formula for a weapon strike is it also affected by str? No, that’s the whole issue - melee weapons don’t scale with strength. They do benefit from heavy’s +50%, and reckless +30 and melee profiency +20. I believe now MF does 160 damage, so with all those perks it would do a little more damage than bash (at 30 strength without perks, bash does 150 damage), but at the cost of 2 AP (unless using adrenaline rush, or the bionic arm). ---
**Author:** ![Yokes](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex036/user_avatar/forums.snapshotgames.com/yokes/32/310_2.png) [@Yokes](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/Yokes)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2020, 12:24am UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/anu-melee-weapons-are-still-worse-than-bashing-with-a-hel-cannon/9721/16 "2020-03-08T00:24:12Z")
> [@Nattfarinn](#): > > wasn’t you the one who bashed through the game with “heavy militia” type of guys It was pantolomin