# A reconsideration of Mind Control
**URL:** https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/a-reconsideration-of-mind-control/10228
**Category:** Game Feedback
**Created:** [April 13, 2020, 3:27am UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/a-reconsideration-of-mind-control/10228 "2020-04-13T03:27:58Z")
**Posts on this page:** 15
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@elcman](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/elcman)
#### Post date: [April 13, 2020, 3:27am UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/a-reconsideration-of-mind-control/10228/1 "2020-04-13T03:27:58Z")
First… mind control drives me crazy in this game. Sirens, insanely armored, crazy unarmed attack, and capable of mind controlling two characters after moving 5 spaces.
Three things I think need reconsideration:
Upgraded Willpower doesn’t deny Sirens the ability to mind control.
Sirens seem to be able to mind control outside of line of sight.
Sirens tend to mind control, retreat, and hide… which doesn’t affect the control they have on characters.
What’s happening now isn’t mind control… it’s casting “charm”. If it’s charm… I’d just call it “charm” and not mind control. It’d be very relevant to the Siren. But a high willpower should still be able to counter it.
What I’d love to see…
Line of sight to initiate mind control, but persists once established.
Siren’s ability to control should be a formula, not a flat 2 round condition:
((Distance from Subject / 3) + (Subject’s Willpower / 2)) Per Subject, Per Turn
Please… make willpower worth its namesake, not simply acting as “mana”. Also, it’ll make those terror sentinels even more ridiculous when paired with Sirens. Sirens could control people all day long with those things shooting off.
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### Author:  [@VOLAND](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/VOLAND)
#### Post date: [April 13, 2020, 8:12am UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/a-reconsideration-of-mind-control/10228/2 "2020-04-13T08:12:35Z")
Just yesterday I added Sirens to my guide, you might want to check it out
> [@A comprehensive guide for playing Phoenix Point (or an attempt at one)](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/a-comprehensive-guide-for-playing-phoenix-point-or-an-attempt-at-one/10188/3):
>
> Sirens are cool and scary, but they are not that hard to deal with. As all Pandorans they come with different heads and arms that give them different abilities, and different amounts of armor and HPs, but the main danger with Sirens is that they will attempt to Mind Control (MC) your squaddies.
As to my opinion on Sirens…
- The fact that they don’t need LOS to initiate MC is certainly annoying. However, they don’t get to move the soldier under MC until the next turn, while the player’s Priests get to do it on the same turn. So _personally_ I don’t mind that they get to do MC without LOS - it’s more than a fair tradeoff, IMO.
- I don’t think there is any Lore to support that MC should be more WP expensive over longer distances. Also, using formulas makes prediciting the outcome of player’s decisions harder. Right now it’s easy to understand if the Siren will keep MC, or not, and what has to be done to end it. This, IMO, is the most important, and the biggest advantage of MC mechanics in PP vs other games.
- Another possibility would be to make Siren’s MC have the same cost as the player’s (that is, the WP of the soldier at the start of the turn). However, this could also work against the player, as killing Pandas would reduce the cost of MCing the soldier for the Siren.
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### Author:  [@mcarver2000](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/mcarver2000)
#### Post date: [April 13, 2020, 8:18am UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/a-reconsideration-of-mind-control/10228/3 "2020-04-13T08:18:45Z")
Psychic powers don’t require line of sight. The priests have similar powers that don’t require line of sight. Any limits to the siren’s power need to be limited on the priest class as well, in order to be balanced.
Doesn’t mean that I enjoy having 4-5 units mind controlled in 1 turn. 3 sirens, 1 frenzies and mind controls a unit, while the other 2 sirens MC 2 units a piece. I do support line of sight being required to initiate mind control, as this appears to be the case for the priest class.
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### Author:  [@Yokes](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/Yokes)
#### Post date: [April 13, 2020, 10:38am UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/a-reconsideration-of-mind-control/10228/4 "2020-04-13T10:38:08Z")
> [@elcman](#):
>
> ((Distance from Subject / 3) + (Subject’s Willpower / 2)) Per Subject, Per Turn
What? So at range of 9 tiles when controling soldier with 12 Willpower it would cost her 9 WP per turn. That is insane. So practically her control would be max 2 turns long. With soldier having 20 Willpower it would be even 10 WP per turn at range up to 2 tiles. So even max 1 turn. She woudn’t be able to control 2 subject effectively.
Lets take 2 soldiers with starting 6 Willpower. She want to control them at range of 9 tiles. So distance takes (9/3)\*2=6, maintain takes (6/2) \* 2 = 6. Casting takes 6 \* 2=12. SO after casting she has 30 - 12 = 18 WP and then she needs 12 WP to control them unless she will reduce distance. So basically She isn’t able to control 2 basic rookies for 2 turn. 🙂
Sorry but NO. She is portrayed as powerful psyhic creature, so 2 rookies shouldn’t pose any challenge to her.
I would agree that cost of maintaining could be increased with increased Willpower, but it woudln’t be divided per 2, but more like divided by 4. So cost\_to\_maintain = round\_down(target\_willpower/4,0). No distance cost involved. And there could be requirement of line of sight to cast mind control, but not to maintain.
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### Author:  [@Ragewraith](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/Ragewraith)
#### Post date: [April 13, 2020, 1:28pm UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/a-reconsideration-of-mind-control/10228/5 "2020-04-13T13:28:48Z")
I’ve always thought a little trick was missed with Sirens. I would have introduced them earlier but nerfed down a bit and given only scream and frenzy. Then a little bit later bring in one that has now ‘evolved’ a daze ability like the bionic head one. Culminating in one that can control minds. While i would never give them rifles or an MG, I can’t see why we can’t have some of the other Panda arsenal tried on a Siren chassis. EG; Basic Siren like i said above IE **without full mind control** and only the scream with mist generators and pain chameleon.
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### Author:  [@Yokes](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/Yokes)
#### Post date: [April 13, 2020, 2:12pm UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/a-reconsideration-of-mind-control/10228/6 "2020-04-13T14:12:23Z")
I plan to change them that evolution also touch them (except Arthrons and Tritons). First they come just as melee fighters, but after evolution they start to mind control.
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### Author:  [@elcman](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/elcman)
#### Post date: [April 13, 2020, 5:59pm UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/a-reconsideration-of-mind-control/10228/7 "2020-04-13T17:59:23Z")
> [@Yokes](#):
>
> I would agree that cost of maintaining could be increased with increased Willpower, but it wouldn’t be divided per 2, but more like divided by 4.
The formula can absolutely change or the pool of willpower increased to accommodate, absolutely. I only bring up the formula as a potential approach that factors Willpower. It’d definitely need playtesting and … I don’t assume I know what I’m talking about, even if I think it should apply.
> [@Yokes](#):
>
> First they come just as melee fighters, but after evolution they start to mind control.
I’d consider the opposite… just because their terror is mind control. I’d keep mind control, then make them more melee damage and more heavily armored later. I’d just make them slightly more squishy to start.
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### Author:  [@Spagetman43](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/Spagetman43)
#### Post date: [April 14, 2020, 8:00am UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/a-reconsideration-of-mind-control/10228/8 "2020-04-14T08:00:08Z")
Two things I have noticed with them:
1: When paralyzed they still keep moving until the end of their turn (should stop immediately, that is what PARALYZED means)
2: When Paralyzed The mind control will still continue its full rounds, that is a bug, you can’t be paralyzed AND mind control at the same time!
In my opinion the mind control is to long, and you need to not have the turrets shoot you own men, they could have a chip in them before they leave the base so the turret knows no matter what happens to them don’t shoot at them.
Also I agree LINE OF SIGHT is a must and it should be maintained, none of this hiding after, also it should be limited to ONE man only until control is lost… Finally if they get the head disabled the control should end immediately not next turn and then lose another turn for the man to recover that is just ridiculous!
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### Author:  [@VOLAND](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/VOLAND)
#### Post date: [April 14, 2020, 10:11am UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/a-reconsideration-of-mind-control/10228/9 "2020-04-14T10:11:45Z")
> [@Spagetman43](#):
>
> 1: When paralyzed they still keep moving until the end of their turn (should stop immediately, that is what PARALYZED means)
I have not observed this. Could be a bug?
> [@Spagetman43](#):
>
> you can’t be paralyzed AND mind control at the same time!
Why not? Paralysis acts vs Strength, MC is dependent on Willpower.
> [@Spagetman43](#):
>
> and you need to not have the turrets shoot you own men
I agree, the turrets at the moment are an unnecessarily risky option. There should be at least an option to turn them off/on at 0 AP cost.
> [@Spagetman43](#):
>
> LINE OF SIGHT is a must and it should be maintained
Perhaps LOS should be necessary to initiate MC (though personally I don’t mind the way it is now, the Siren is meant to be a powerful psychic), but be maintained? Why?
> [@Spagetman43](#):
>
> it should be limited to ONE man only until control is lost…
Why? The player’s priest can MC more than one unit simultaneously. It’s very useful with worms, by the way.
> [@Spagetman43](#):
>
> Finally if they get the head disabled the control should end immediately not next turn and then lose another turn for the man to recover that is just ridiculous!
I disagree. The player’s priest gets immediate control of the unit under MC, on same turn. The Siren had to wait one turn. It’s only fair that 1) if you kill the Siren you lose one turn, and 2) if you disable her head (which is usually easier), 2.
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### Author:  [@Spagetman43](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/Spagetman43)
#### Post date: [April 14, 2020, 1:20pm UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/a-reconsideration-of-mind-control/10228/10 "2020-04-14T13:20:05Z")
> [@VOLAND](#):
>
> Why not? Paralysis acts vs Strength, MC is dependent on Willpower.
If your unable to move your body parts how can you be expected to move a totally different one over a LONG distance? Not logical!
And if it means nerfing the Priest then so be it, but two is tow much…
As for the head if you just had a bullet pass though your brain then all functions stops! I doubt you have enough grey matter to spare for holding onto a victims mind! All remaining function should be used to run its own affairs, that’s how I see it anyway…🙂
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### Author:  [@Yokes](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/Yokes)
#### Post date: [April 14, 2020, 2:18pm UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/a-reconsideration-of-mind-control/10228/11 "2020-04-14T14:18:38Z")
> [@Spagetman43](#):
>
> If your unable to move your body parts how can you be expected to move a totally different one over a LONG distance? Not logical!
Logical logical. One could be in coma and theoretically be mind controlling someone else. 😉
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### Author:  [@mcarver2000](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/mcarver2000)
#### Post date: [April 14, 2020, 2:34pm UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/a-reconsideration-of-mind-control/10228/12 "2020-04-14T14:34:06Z")
An individual can be paralyzed yet still retain full brain function. Paralyze in PP affects Action Points, not Will Power. Mind control is a Will Power function, not an Action Point function.
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### Author:  [@Spagetman43](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/Spagetman43)
#### Post date: [April 15, 2020, 8:12am UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/a-reconsideration-of-mind-control/10228/13 "2020-04-15T08:12:37Z")
> [@Yokes](#):
>
> Logical logical. One could be in coma and theoretically be mind controlling someone else.
How do you work that out? mind control in a coma…🙂 I think if I was in a coma my only thoughts would be focused on breathing…🙂 Anyway, its a game right… So we can adjust it how we like, lets get it balanced!
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### Author:  [@mcarver2000](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/mcarver2000)
#### Post date: [April 15, 2020, 9:06am UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/a-reconsideration-of-mind-control/10228/14 "2020-04-15T09:06:37Z")
I think comparing being paralyzed with being in a coma is not the best example. [Coma - Brain Foundation](https://brainfoundation.org.au/disorders/coma/)
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### Author:  [@Yokes](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/Yokes)
#### Post date: [April 15, 2020, 9:38am UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/a-reconsideration-of-mind-control/10228/15 "2020-04-15T09:38:08Z")
Oh, wrong term. 😃 Sorry. I mean this one:
> **[Locked-in syndrome](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locked-in_syndrome)**
>
> Locked-in syndrome (LIS), also known as pseudocoma, is a condition in which a patient is aware but cannot move or communicate verbally due to complete paralysis of nearly all voluntary muscles in the body except for vertical eye movements and blinking. The individual is conscious and sufficiently intact cognitively to be able to communicate with eye movements.
> Electroencephalography results are normal in locked-in syndrome.
> Total locked-in syndrome, or completely locked-in state (CLIS), is a Lo...