# A proposal on how to rebalance skills **URL:** \ **Category:** Game Feedback\ **Created:** [January 30, 2020, 11:20am UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/a-proposal-on-how-to-rebalance-skills/9178 "2020-01-30T11:20:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Zzzz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/f0a364/32.png) [@Zzzz](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/Zzzz)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2020, 11:33am UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/a-proposal-on-how-to-rebalance-skills/9178/21 "2020-02-01T11:33:18Z")
> [@VOLAND](#): > > I’m looking for the maximum APs a soldier can have in a squad of 8. So I assume 7 of his soldiers cast rally - the cost to them of casting is irrelevant for this point, he gets + 7 AP. > > @Zzzz OK, I assume you realize now that the problem with rally the troops is not about refunding 1 A. > > > > I assume you meant “can’t do”. And if you limit the damage buffs - rule 3 > > > > Yes can’t, limit buff would just make the skill pointless, back to management of case I suggest, remove Bloodlust. > > > False, Reckless will be pointless. > > I think you are misunderstanding me Zzzz. I’m saying to _limit_ the buffs to damage to 100%, not to limit damage to 100%. So reckless, blood lust and other damage buffs can stack together to increase damage of an attack until it does _twice the damage but no more_ . So you don’t use a dying infiltrator berserker with blood rush with reckless with boost to a weapon with stealth to do absurd amount of damage with an airgun. I forgot this aspect yes, was lloking only at soldier perspective but it’s a team skill. But for me your count is irrelevant. The soldier get 7AP, 3 attacks, it’s not worth any nerf. The problem is the team get 49 AP and spend 14 AP and 14WP so won 35AP for 14WP cost, looks wrong. I think limit Rally to 2 or 3 uses per team and per turn should be totally fine, still a great use, still some powerful use cases, and no true OP holes. ---
**Author:** ![Zzzz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/f0a364/32.png) [@Zzzz](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/Zzzz)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2020, 11:36am UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/a-proposal-on-how-to-rebalance-skills/9178/22 "2020-02-01T11:36:55Z")
> [@VOLAND](#): > > I think you are misunderstanding me Zzzz. I’m saying to _limit_ the buffs to damage to 100%, not to limit damage to 100%. So reckless, blood lust and other damage buffs can stack together to increase damage of an attack until it does _twice the damage but no more_ . So you don’t use a dying infiltrator berserker with blood rush with reckless with boost to a weapon with stealth to do absurd amount of damage with an airgun. Yes I didn’t understood your proposition. Well cap tend be very good tools, Stealth need one and in my opinion attributes effects too, I don’t like much this because for example Rage Burst is 500% damages, Rapid Aim is sort of 200% damages, Adrenalish Rush is potentially 400% damages. The problem of excessive damages isn’t above 200% damages, it’s Rapid Clearance making one shot kill very powerful. It’s my opinion. For example I’m fine with one shot kill to manage RF. ---
**Author:** ![VOLAND](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/c6cbf5/32.png) [@VOLAND](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/VOLAND)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2020, 11:56am UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/a-proposal-on-how-to-rebalance-skills/9178/23 "2020-02-01T11:56:04Z")
> [@Zzzz](#): > > But for me your count is irrelevant. The soldier get 7AP, 3 attacks, it’s not worth any nerf. It is when combined with rapid clearance. > [@Zzzz](#): > > The problem is the team get 49 AP and spend 14 AP and 14WP so won 35AP for 14WP cost, looks wrong. That’s why I’m saying put a hard cap on APs that can be spent per turn. That way max AP a team of 8 can get through rally is 32 - 8 = 24 AP. And with the opportunity cost of rapid clearance (no point in using it if you max out your APs through rally). At first I also favored limiting RtT to 2 or 3 uses per squad per turn. But here is the problem. These 2 or 3 APs are perhaps not too much on their own, but they can be used very effectively to close rapid clearance loops and extend them beyond reason. That’s why rapid clearance and rally the troops should be tackled together. ---
**Author:** ![SpiteAndMalice](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex036/user_avatar/forums.snapshotgames.com/spiteandmalice/32/39_2.png) [@SpiteAndMalice](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/SpiteAndMalice)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2020, 1:09pm UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/a-proposal-on-how-to-rebalance-skills/9178/24 "2020-02-01T13:09:40Z")
An alternative way in which rally could be limited would be range. Allow the skill to give APs only to troops that are in close proximity to the unit who is using that perk and you’ll bring a new type of tactic thinking to the game. ---
**Author:** ![VOLAND](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/c6cbf5/32.png) [@VOLAND](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/VOLAND)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2020, 1:45pm UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/a-proposal-on-how-to-rebalance-skills/9178/25 "2020-02-01T13:45:15Z")
> [@SpiteAndMalice](#): > > An alternative way in which rally could be limited would be range. It’s a possibility, but hard to say how it would work out without testing. If I was imagining this skill from scratch (or in a mod) I would do something like this: - Assign hierarchy within a squad, so that there is one leader and one or two lieutenants. - Give leadership abilities to the leader and to the lieutenant(s) that boost performance of the other soldiers in the squad limited by range (give APs, WPs, damage/accuracy/defense boosts, etc.) This would encourage gameplay based on teamwork, and more specialized builds. ---
**Author:** ![Zzzz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/f0a364/32.png) [@Zzzz](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/Zzzz)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2020, 6:16pm UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/a-proposal-on-how-to-rebalance-skills/9178/26 "2020-02-01T18:16:01Z")
> [@VOLAND](#): > > It is when combined with rapid clearance. Non relevant, Rapid Clearance is the problem. > [@VOLAND](#): > > That’s why I’m saying put a hard cap on APs that can be spent per turn. Looks complicated to make it clear. > [@VOLAND](#): > > These 2 or 3 APs are perhaps not too much on their own, but they can be used very effectively to close rapid clearance loops and extend them beyond reason. Again, Rapid Clearance. For me you are looking problem at the wrong direction, all impressive OP holes I saw was either from bad design of Lairs/Citadels that need both a huge rework anyway, either involving Rapid Clearance, with most impressive involving Rapid Clearance and Adrenalin Rush. First RC need a good nerf, including in the light of RC+AR. Past that it will change a lot games OP holes. Secondly Lairs/Citadels need a big change, this will break OP holes based on high speed and quick kill. ---
**Author:** ![VOLAND](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/c6cbf5/32.png) [@VOLAND](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/VOLAND)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2020, 11:46pm UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/a-proposal-on-how-to-rebalance-skills/9178/27 "2020-02-01T23:46:22Z")
> [@Zzzz](#): > > Looks complicated to make it clear. Not really. If it’s the cap is set at 8 AP, it’s just double the regular AP. Put 4 differently colored rectangles above the white ones, and that’s just off the top of my head. I’m sure there are better ways to show it. > [@Zzzz](#): > > For me you are looking problem at the wrong direction, all impressive OP holes I saw was either from bad design of Lairs/Citadels that need both a huge rework anyway, either involving Rapid Clearance, with most impressive involving Rapid Clearance and Adrenalin Rush. These are not the only “impressive” OP holes by far. If you want impressive, throw in an infiltrator in the mix. But, anyway, look at it this way: suppose RC is nerfed so that the loop breaks more easily or so that it ends before it becomes OP. However, nothing is done about RtT. Don’t you see that RtT can then be used to mend the RC loop? Or for the soldier to continue attacking after RC ends? These are extra attacks coming _on top off_ the RC attacks, they are unreasonable by definition if RC is nerfed so as not to be OP. Even if RtT is nerfed so that it is reasonable on its own (say, 2 or 3 uses per squad per turn), those 2 or 3 APs can mean the world of difference to how RC works. ---
**Author:** ![Zzzz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/f0a364/32.png) [@Zzzz](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/Zzzz)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2020, 8:33am UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/a-proposal-on-how-to-rebalance-skills/9178/28 "2020-02-02T08:33:37Z")
> [@VOLAND](#): > > These are not the only “impressive” OP holes by far. If you want impressive, throw in an infiltrator in the mix. Slow compared to Assault/Berzerk. But yeah stealth 100% should not be allowed, for vanish, I think it can be kept as it is. For the 100% damages it won’t make better a full team of infiltrator compared to a more diversified team, and from far. All 7th skills are powerful, Infiltrator isn’t better. ---
**Author:** ![Zzzz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/f0a364/32.png) [@Zzzz](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/Zzzz)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2020, 8:35am UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/a-proposal-on-how-to-rebalance-skills/9178/29 "2020-02-02T08:35:19Z")
> [@VOLAND](#): > > But, anyway, look at it this way: suppose RC is nerfed so that the loop breaks more easily or so that it ends before it becomes OP. However, nothing is done about RtT. > > Don’t you see that RtT can then be used to mend the RC loop? False, RC has no end but end of turn. ---
**Author:** ![VOLAND](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/c6cbf5/32.png) [@VOLAND](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/VOLAND)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2020, 8:55am UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/a-proposal-on-how-to-rebalance-skills/9178/30 "2020-02-02T08:55:48Z")
> [@Zzzz](#): > > False, RC has no end but end of turn. Are you arguing for the sake of arguing? I said assume RC is nerfed, e.g. as per one of your suggestions: > [@Zzzz](#): > > RC is stopped at 5th kill, or perhaps 6 or 4. > [@Zzzz](#): > > All 7th skills are powerful, Infiltrator isn’t better. :sigh: you _are_ arguing for the sake of arguing. _You know_ that it’s not about the 200%, it’s how that stacks with all the other damage buffs and how it works with the other skills. ---
**Author:** ![noStas](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex036/user_avatar/forums.snapshotgames.com/nostas/32/2001_2.png) [@noStas](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/noStas)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2020, 11:36am UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/a-proposal-on-how-to-rebalance-skills/9178/31 "2020-02-02T11:36:15Z")
And so, I like this idea and I want changes on this way. VOLAND you created a topic on CANNY or do we need to think How to raise this topic in TOP in this forum? P.S. and this is a question on a new topic, `How to make the forum "transparent" for developers, if CANNY exists.` ---
**Author:** ![Zzzz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/f0a364/32.png) [@Zzzz](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/Zzzz)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2020, 12:13pm UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/a-proposal-on-how-to-rebalance-skills/9178/32 "2020-02-02T12:13:51Z")
> [@VOLAND](#): > > Are you arguing for the sake of arguing? I said assume RC is nerfed, e.g. as per one of your suggestions: No, you are dishonest that’s what I quote, you show only the suggestion I did that could seem not based on end of turn, but it could. > [@VOLAND](#): > > :sigh: you _are_ arguing for the sake of arguing. _Y_ No, but you are making me lost my time with your whining. ---
**Author:** ![VOLAND](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/c6cbf5/32.png) [@VOLAND](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/VOLAND)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2020, 1:03pm UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/a-proposal-on-how-to-rebalance-skills/9178/33 "2020-02-02T13:03:41Z")
@noStas thanks, I will be creating a ticket (or separate into two) on canny today. I wanted to refine the idea first. I pretty sure the devs will read it, as there are not that many tickets. ---
**Author:** ![Ouroboros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/67e7ee/32.png) [@Ouroboros](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/Ouroboros)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2020, 9:18am UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/a-proposal-on-how-to-rebalance-skills/9178/34 "2020-02-03T09:18:25Z")
IMO the game needs to nerf player skills that causes a continuous loop. For example, only 1 dash per turn allowed. Abilities that regain AP should also be limited to once per round. [AP refund if X] abilities should only be once per round, but maybe buff them a bit - and give the skill higher cost or cooldown. AP regain is fine, but they should function to give a big advantage when you need it most, adds to player agency. For one or all of these nerfs, the counter-balance should lie in making things like way too OP enemy damage and armor values weaker. Damage stacking should have a soft cap so that any bonus damage above 160% is cut in half. These changes needs to happen imo because it adds to balance and player agency. No more ridiculous action loops, more decision making as to when to use special abilities to best effect. The counter balance being weakening the current insane pandoran scalings. This is the way - because it brings both extremes of player and AI power more centralized towards a middleground. ---
**Author:** ![pantolomin](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex036/user_avatar/forums.snapshotgames.com/pantolomin/32/1398_2.png) [@pantolomin](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/pantolomin)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2020, 12:30pm UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/a-proposal-on-how-to-rebalance-skills/9178/35 "2020-02-03T12:30:07Z")
> [@SpiteAndMalice](#): > > An alternative way in which rally could be limited would be range. Allow the skill to give APs only to troops that are in close proximity to the unit who is using that perk and you’ll bring a new type of tactic thinking to the game. 8 assaults advancing side by side, wiping any Enemy that they encounter. ---
**Author:** ![stewpidbear](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex036/user_avatar/forums.snapshotgames.com/stewpidbear/32/1726_2.png) [@stewpidbear](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/stewpidbear)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2020, 12:56pm UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/a-proposal-on-how-to-rebalance-skills/9178/36 "2020-02-03T12:56:31Z")
Front rank fire, rear rank fire…Micheal Caine would be proud!😉 ---
**Author:** ![VOLAND](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/c6cbf5/32.png) [@VOLAND](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/VOLAND)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2020, 1:35pm UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/a-proposal-on-how-to-rebalance-skills/9178/37 "2020-02-03T13:35:11Z")
> [@Ouroboros](#): > > IMO the game needs to nerf player skills that causes a continuous loop. For example, only 1 dash per turn allowed. I have gone in my opinions on the matter from “no cooldowns/caps to skill uses” to “cap skill uses” to what I’m suggesting now. Here is the thing about, for example, dash: even 1 dash per turn with top speed, armor speed buffs, frenzy and blood lust and whatnot is like entering hyperspace. At the same time, for a normal build even 2-3 dashes per turn is OK. So my suggestion: set a hard limit on how much a soldier can run per turn. Then it’s up to the player to choose how to maximize mobility. > [@Ouroboros](#): > > Abilities that regain AP should also be limited to once per round. [AP refund if X] abilities should only be once per round, but maybe buff them a bit - and give the skill higher cost or cooldown. The problem with increasing cost to balance the utility of a skill, or cooldowns, is that it is very contextual. Meaning that if the skill allows you to wipe out, or almost wipe out all the enemies, it doesn’t matter what it costs or that you can’t use it next turn. Of course limiting Rally the Troops to once per turn per squad would probably eliminate the chance for any OP holes - even with 8 soldiers it’s 1 AP to each of the seven soldiers for the price of 2APs. However, even allowing two RtT per squad per turn would increase the chances for OP holes when you take into account Rapid Clearance (and how these 2 extra APs from RtT could be used to mend a broken RC loop). Again, my point is that if you set a hard cap on how many APs a soldier can spend on a turn regardless of refunds, you take care of the problem without the need to nerf any specific skills. 8 APs is plenty, I think, and, as to RC, the chance of getting 4 APs for 5WPs is a reasonable deal. > [@Ouroboros](#): > > Damage stacking should have a soft cap so that any bonus damage above 160% is cut in half. Do you mean damage can be increased by 60% and any buffs applied after are cut in half? So the stealth x2 = 100% buff would be 60% + 40%/2 = 80%? > [@Ouroboros](#): > > The counter balance being weakening the current insane pandoran scalings. I agree - that literally goes without saying, particularly on easier difficulties. ---
**Author:** ![VOLAND](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/c6cbf5/32.png) [@VOLAND](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/VOLAND)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2020, 2:09pm UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/a-proposal-on-how-to-rebalance-skills/9178/38 "2020-02-03T14:09:44Z")
I have created a ticket on canny for this: [https://phoenixpoint.canny.io/feedback/p/put-a-hard-limit-on-buffs-other-skill-effects](https://phoenixpoint.canny.io/feedback/p/put-a-hard-limit-on-buffs-other-skill-effects) ---
**Author:** ![SpiteAndMalice](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex036/user_avatar/forums.snapshotgames.com/spiteandmalice/32/39_2.png) [@SpiteAndMalice](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/SpiteAndMalice)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2020, 9:10pm UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/a-proposal-on-how-to-rebalance-skills/9178/39 "2020-02-03T21:10:13Z")
> [@pantolomin](#): > > 8 assaults advancing side by side, wiping any Enemy that they encounter. At least they won’t be snipers. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Yokes](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex036/user_avatar/forums.snapshotgames.com/yokes/32/310_2.png) [@Yokes](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/u/Yokes)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2020, 9:44pm UTC](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/a-proposal-on-how-to-rebalance-skills/9178/40 "2020-02-03T21:44:33Z")
> [@SpiteAndMalice](#): > > At least they won’t be snipers They will be assault/snipers. 😉 [Previous page](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/a-proposal-on-how-to-rebalance-skills/9178.md?page=1) [Next page](https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/a-proposal-on-how-to-rebalance-skills/9178.md?page=3)